Aug. 6, 2026

You're Measuring the Wrong Things

You're Measuring the Wrong Things
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Join Divya Parekh with workplace experts Dr. W. Brad Johnson and Dr. David G. Smith as they explore how outdated workplace norms limit leadership, inclusion, and career growth. Learn why many diversity initiatives fail, how flexibility and results-based leadership drive success, and how organizations can create cultures that value contribution over visibility while supporting caregivers and fostering lasting workplace equity.

Beyond Confidence is broadcast live Tuesdays at 10AM ET on W4WN Radio - Women 4 Women Network (www.w4wn.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Beyond Confidence TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

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This episode includes AI-generated content.

WEBVTT

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The topics and opinions expressed on the following show are

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solely those of the hosts and their guests and not

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W four WN Radio.

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This is Beyond Confidence with your host d W Park.

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Do you want to live a more fulfilling life? Do

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you want to live your legacy and achieve your personal, professional,

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and financial goals? Well? Coming up on Dvparks Beyond Confidence,

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you will hear real stories of leaders, entrepreneurs, and achievers

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who have stepped into discomfort, shattered their satus quo, and

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are living the life they want. You will learn how

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relationships are the key to achieving your aspirations and financial goals.

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Moving your career business forward does not have to happen

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at the expense of your personal or family life, or

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vice versa. Learn more at www dot gwpark dot com

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and you can connect with vants contact at gvpark dot com.

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This is beyond confidence and now here's your host. W Park.

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Good morning everyone, It's Tuesday, and of course I'm thrilled

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to be with you. It is one of the favorite

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times of my week because we get to have a

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wonderful conversations. And sometimes these conversations are hard. Sometimes these

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conversations are fun, but these are conversations that are important

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to have that nobody may be having. So I want

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to thank each in every one of you who have

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got a boox, especially in this day and age with

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AI becoming a thread and scaring so many people. So

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if you're looking to future proof your career and learn

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how to think about AI, because it's not what you think,

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it's how you think, be sure to get our book,

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The AIA and see and as you'll know, part of

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the proceeds going to Kiva dot org because it's important

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that we share the cheer with others as well. So

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let's welcome our guest. Welcome Brad, Welcome, David.

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Hey, great to be with you.

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Thanks Stevie, absolutely so. Do you recall either of you

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a moment or a person that left a positive mark

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on you.

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Boy, Where to start? There are so many if you

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you know, I'm gonna I'm just going to refer very

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quickly when it comes to this thing, this project that

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Dave Smith and I have been engaged in for all

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of these years, promoting a gender fair workplace, promoting gender

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fair relationships. I think I need to start with my

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only sibling, my sister. We had parallel has in the military.

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My sister stayed for thirty years, and I got a

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front row seat over the arc of her career, hearing

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about and observing the gendered headwinds that my sister experienced

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daily that I never did as a male who happens

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to have a similar career and similar personality style. And

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that was kind of my eye opener to gender inequity

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both in relationships at work, to opportunities both in society

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and the workplace. So I think it was that influence,

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you know, engaging with my sister, listening to her, observing her,

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that was kind of what got me started on this path.

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Yeah, very similar for me, not my sibling, but in

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this case my spouse and my partner, my wife, We

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had parallel careers and it was really a lot of

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those conversations over the dining table about the experiences we

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were having in the workplace and seeing how we had

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very different experiences, both in some of the interpersonal aspects

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of how we were perceived in the workplace, but also

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in opportunities, mentoring, just being seen as being ready for

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what's next, And a lot of that came very naturally

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to me. I didn't have to look very hard for her.

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It was often very challenging to find people who were

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willing to talk to her about her career and her

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career development. And it really opened my eyes to the

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fact that these were not necessarily just one person's experiences,

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because I went back and I talked to my own colleagues,

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my female colleagues at work, and to look at their

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experiences and also made the connection that Wow, this is

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a really systemic issue that lots of women are having,

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and it does tend to be more rampant in more

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majority male professions and occupations out there, but it's not

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peculiar to them, right, see that and lots of them

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out there. And that was the one that got me

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curious and thinking more about this and about how we

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could all be engaged in doing the work to really

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help to solve for some of the gender inequities we

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see today in the workplace.

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Absolutely, Brett, thank you for your services. And it's it's

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important that we recognized what's going on and a lot

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of things have changed as we look at the numbers.

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What was not true a few decades back, it is

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true now we are seeing a lot more women CEOs,

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more women in the workforce, and yet there is that

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gap and it's important to bridge that gap. So, David,

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what was your career like and how did you decide

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to shift from your career into this project.

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And again, I have my start in the military, and

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that was where I began to see some of the

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differences as women were being integrated more fully into the military,

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recognizing that again it wasn't necessarily equal or equitable in

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many different ways in terms of their opportunities they were

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receiving when we had that, and so one of the

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places that we thought was I think really interesting in

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terms of the research. And this is where Brad and

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I started our work together when we were collaborating and

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teaching at the US Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland, and

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Brad's an expert and mentoring and career developmental relationships. And

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one of the connections we saw to my work in

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sociology around gender work and family issues was really this

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kind of the disconnect in terms of the quality and

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the access and the type of mentoring and just broader

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advocacy and sponsorship well as well for women compared to men.

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And also the fact that many cases, you know, there

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was this difference in that men don't make or sponsor

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women in the same way that they do for women,

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and when they do, they often don't do it in

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the same quality and doing it in a very loud,

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full throated way that have really speaking up for her,

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especially when she's not in the room, in the same

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way that they do for other men. And it really

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piqued their curiosity to understand more about how maybe it's

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some of these career developmental opportunities that were the roots

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and the source of some of this. So we began

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that's where we started and doing our research and moving

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towards this idea around how do we engage men and

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becoming part of the solution around creating gender equity in

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the workplace, because you know, often when we you know,

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we looked at organizations and leaders, and we see these inequities,

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like you know again, women not getting the same kind

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or the same access to mentoring as men. They often

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looked at that and said, well, we'll create a women's

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mentoring program, which is great, right because it gives a

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focus on women, but it often still sent a message

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to men that they didn't need to engage in doing

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the work. And so we needed to think about how

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do we reframe this, right, how do we begin to

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shift this this is a more systemic issue and structure

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this in a way so that men see that they

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have something in this too to be gained. And they

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have and they're part of the solution as well when

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it comes to doing this for everybody.

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David, thank you for sharing that, and thank you for

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your services. So as you and Brad that the research.

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I really like what you're sharing that making men also

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part of the solution. What are some of the findings

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that you came across.

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Well, I hope you have three hours, because we have

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a lot to share. We're going to keep it. We're

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going to keep it very brief for you, Diva. But

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some of the big things that really stood out, I

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think the way we as maybe organizational leaders for the

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last several decades have tried to approach gender fairness is

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simply not working. And here a couple ingredients. Here, we

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have made gender fairness of women's problem, meaning all of

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the obligation to change the workplace, to change inequities has

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been on the backs of women. So women's rgs, which

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are rarely funded or maybe human resources, get these siloed

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obligations to fix what's wrong in the workplace, and that's

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simply not working. Women didn't create this series of inequities

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around gender, and it's truly unfair to now expect them

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to fix it. So that messaging has suggested to men

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over and over again that this is a women's problem.

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So maybe you haven't advent or initiative in your company

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around gender, and you men see it and immediately say, well,

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that has gender or women in the title, So that

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doesn't involve me, So I don't show up, I don't engage,

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I don't think I'm invited. And then one other issue

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that came out loud and clear in our first book Athenaising,

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A lot of men are afraid. They're afraid of stepping

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in it. They're afraid of saying the wrong thing. They're

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afraid of gossip or rumors. They don't want to get

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it wrong, and they think that it's safer just to

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sit on the sideline and you know, maybe not engage

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with these talented women who are coming into their departments

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or their organizations. They say to themselves, well, women can

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mentor and sponsor those talented junior women. I don't need

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to do that. And by the way, I'm anxious about

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doing that. So I think we have not given men

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the opportunity to see what's in it for them when

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they really lean in to collaborative relationships with women, when

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they contribute to gender fairness, when they loudly sponsor women

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at work. There's a lot in this for us, and

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we can tell you more about that. But men benefit

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when they really engage in gender fair workplace.

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And those are some of the keywards. What's in it

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for them? What's in it for me? Especially in this

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day and age. Yeah, so we'd love to hear your

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thoughts as to how can men benefit, because when they

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are also benefiting, then it becomes a women situation rather

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than creating that gap that oh, this is not my problem.

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Yeah, yeah, maybe we could start with the area around caregiving,

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because this is one of those around traditional gender roles.

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That is one of the challenges that that men and

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women both face in the workplace. And so as we

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think about benefiting and the opportunity to make the workplace

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more fair and to facilitate, you know, getting what I

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want and what and what she wants at the same time,

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I think this is a place where we can all

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win when it comes to that, including the organization, including

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the workplace, the employer. And so again, these these notions

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that that women are somehow the innate caregivers and the

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and the default caregivers and any relationship really hinders women's

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ability to move forward in their careers, move forward as

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leaders seek opportunities when there's perceptions by men and other

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people in the in their organization that somehow they're a risk,

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or they're they're not as committed to the work, or

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they're going to leave at some point, or they're they're

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just not able to commit to the same quality and

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level of the work as men are, and so they

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don't right, so they don't get the opportunities. They are

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not put in the positions where they can do these things,

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and so this, this hinders women's ability to do that.

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The flip side of that coin is that there's an assumption,

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right from a gender roles perspective, around traditional gender roles,

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that men are somehow not innate caregivers, are not good

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at caregiving or the again, the stereotypes that go with

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that around these bumbling men who who can't seem to

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find their way around to how to take take care

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of others, whether they're small children or somebody older in

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their family. Maybe, but men can and men do want

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to do that. And that's the challenge is that when

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men try to step into caregiving roles or to do

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more of that, to take maybe take some time off

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or paid leave or use flexible work arrangements to be

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able to facilitate doing some of that caregiving, they're penalized.

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And sometimes it's very explicitly and other times it's implied

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in terms of maybe their manager asking him it's like, oh, well,

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you know, why do you need paid leave? Don't you

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have a wife? And it's like, WHOA really is that

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where we're going to go with this, But this, you know,

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these expectations that men are going to be penalized and

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they are in many ways. They're stigmatized and penalized for

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trying to use programs or policies practices that enable them

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to be the caregivers that they need to be. That

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also help us to facilitate women stepping in and leaning

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into those roles where they're not doing the lion's share

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of the caregiving. And we haven't even gotten to the

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domestic labor and the mental load that goes with all

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of that as well.

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Yeah, and two other benefits, Diva that you know you

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mentioned the with them, what's in it for men? Two

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other things. Lots of research now showing that when men

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lean into caregiving at home and share it equitably, they

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have healthier brains. You know, they have younger looking brains.

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Caregiving tends to stimulate areas in the brain that are

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linked to better empathy and you know, emotional intelligence and awareness.

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They feel better, they enjoy deeper relationships with their children.

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And then second, we're looking at research on men who

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are getting promoted to C suite jobs across corporate America

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in the last decade or so. It turns out men

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who show up with this spirit of collaboration and inclusion

250
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and humility and curiosity all the things that lead to

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really gender fair leadership, those are the men who are

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getting promoted today. I think companies and organizations are finally

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recognizing that's who we want in LEE readership. And so

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if you want to know what's in it for men,

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there's a lot of career opportunity in addition to all

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the interpersonal benefits.

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Absolutely, and companies are stepping up because as I coach

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so many different gentlemen from across different span of cross

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section of different industries, a lot of companies are providing

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equal portunity leads for men as well as for women.

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So that's another way that they can kind of step

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in to bridge the gap. You talk about five essential

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tactics for world class gender inclusive leadership, So what might

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those be?

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Well, I can lead off Dave, and maybe you have

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some others in mind. But number one, stop outsourcing gender

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fairness initiatives. Too many leaders, you know, are happy to

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silo all of their gender inclusion initiatives in for example,

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the Women's Energy Right or maybe HR tend to be

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underfunded or not funded at all, and it puts all

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the obligation on the disadvantaged group in this case women,

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to affect change. In the company that's not working. I

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need to make this a core business initiative and make

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it really clear that this is not a nice to have,

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it's a value that we want to live in everything

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we do and the way we do business. So stop outsourcing.

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You need to own gender fairness. It needs to be

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centered in the work that you do as an executive

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in your organization. People need to be clear about that.

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And I'll give you a tangible example when, for example,

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International Women's Day comes around and your company has a

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very performative tea and cookies and a panel to celebrate women,

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but there's nothing else meaningful going on. You know, the

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rest of the year, everyone in your organization knows that

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that's performative. And a lot of people we talked to said,

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you know, I can walk into a company and tell

287
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right away, maybe I'm a speaker on a gender event.

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I can tell right away how seriously the company takes it,

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because when it's serious, usually the CEO it not only

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introduces me, but stays for the entire session, takes notes,

291
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ask questions. That makes it clear to everybody that this

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is a top priority, right versus the CEO who doesn't

293
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even show up which is more common or quickly introduces

294
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the speaker and then takes off to, you know, a

295
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more important meeting, so you see that quite often. Second,

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or I guess third, talk about your why. You need

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to get comfortable with your why. Why does gender fairness

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matter to you? Why is this a key business priority

299
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for your organization? And talk about your personal why who?

300
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Who are the women in your lives that matter to

301
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you and that you care about and that you don't

302
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want to face inequities. Tell your story it needs to

303
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be compelling on a personal level, and then pivot and

304
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go from your personal why to why does this matter

305
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for our organization? Dave any others I missed?

306
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Yeah, you know one I like the highlight is really

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around how we how we from a cultural perspective, and

308
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there's certainly a shift here in how we value for example,

309
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care work. But transparency is a key piece of this,

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and being transparent across the organization. One in the policies

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and practices that we're using and then who's using them

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and how they're being used. Right, so people want to know, right,

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this is how we get past stigma and it's like, oh,

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you know we have this policy, but you can't really

315
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use it, or my manager said that, you know, hey,

316
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that's not really for you. And that's often something that

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men here when it comes to for example, paid leave

318
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out there. So having transparency is really good. One of

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the ways that we see leaders really embody that and lead,

320
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you know, in a very forward leaning way with it,

321
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is how they role model and use some of these programs.

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Right.

323
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So, yeah, maybe you're at that point in your career

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where I don't necessarily need remote work or flex work arrangements,

325
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but it really means a lot when I'm not one

326
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hundred percent in the office and I'm using those on

327
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an occasional basis, when it makes sense right to demonstrate that, hey,

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this isn't just for certain people, this is for all

329
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of us, right, and here's what it looks like when

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I use it, so I can role model what it

331
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looks like to use flex work arrangements or remote work

332
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or hybrid work in some case. The other part of that,

333
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I think, in the valuing caregiving is also the implementation

334
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of how we use it. And so the same thing, right,

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role model, how do you use paid leave? What does

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it look like? How do we value that in terms

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of training managers who are implementing these policies, you know,

338
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down there on the front lines. How do we train

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them and educate them on the implementation of these policies.

340
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What's it look like when I have a I find

341
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out that I have an employee who's going to go

342
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on paid leave? What does that process look like? How

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do I prepare them to go on paid leave? How

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do I prepare my team to again, how do we

345
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re distribute that work or how do do I have

346
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the opportunity to bring somebody else in temporary work? You know,

347
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what are my options when it comes to the tools

348
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of my toolkit? And then how do I support that

349
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worker when they're on paid leave and again without end

350
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up being an intrusive on their time off, but at

351
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the same time recognizing that, hey, we want to stay

352
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connected while you're gone, and that means because I'm looking

353
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forward to you coming back. And talk about the transition back,

354
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which can often be the hardest part for women and men.

355
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When you've been away from work for whether it's six weeks,

356
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twelve weeks, six months at a time, it's hard to

357
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come back when especially and you've been in some sort

358
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of a full caregiving mode. In that way, and so

359
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talk about the transition, what does it look like, what

360
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are we going to do, what would work best for you?

361
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And then what would work best for the team, and

362
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how do we make those meat in the middle. And

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then I guess I think the other part is understanding

364
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that we all need different aspects around, for example, childcare

365
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or elder care benefits, and then beginning to understand and

366
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talk about that in a way that we can we

367
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can understand and make sure that those benefits are available

368
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and accessible to the people that need them in a

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way that again they can afford, because often caregiving is

370
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very expensive and we have a lot of you know,

371
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childcare today in many places. As most parents out there

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can tell you, it was just one of those where

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it's like they're making very hard decisions about the economics

374
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and their family around who's doing what kind of work

375
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and how much of that work because of just the

376
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cost around caregiving, and childcare is just one piece of it.

377
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Elder care is another component of that, and in many

378
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cases we have that sandwich generation of us who are

379
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you know, we still have kids at home that are

380
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less than eighteen, and we have parents who are over

381
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sixty five. And we're doing caregiving for both on both ends,

382
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and so how do we work with them to keep

383
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that talent in the workforce and help them to stay

384
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at that high level at the same time meet those

385
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caregiving needs that they need to do.

386
00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:27.720
Absolutely, these are some great points. What really resonated with me, David,

387
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was that transition helping, whether it's men or a woman

388
00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:39.759
transition during that time that listen, as you're heading out

389
00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:44.319
for caregiving, whether it is for parentally or whether it

390
00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:49.200
is for elderly care, that you're secure you're not going

391
00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:51.319
to get penalized that you are out for six months.

392
00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:56.079
We will evaluate you based on your performance in six months.

393
00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:58.400
Because a lot of my clients have come back and

394
00:22:58.440 --> 00:23:04.599
said that because out my ranking from a performance yearly

395
00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:10.039
performance review went down, So come and you'll pr which

396
00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:12.279
is performance review. I don't know if I want to

397
00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:15.039
take full leave, and so many times they end up

398
00:23:15.079 --> 00:23:17.480
taking only half a leave, or sometimes what they'll do

399
00:23:17.559 --> 00:23:20.039
is they'll take two months here, then two months there,

400
00:23:20.680 --> 00:23:23.920
and when they're doing that, it disrupts the team a lot,

401
00:23:24.200 --> 00:23:27.000
and then you also start seeing resentment on the team's part.

402
00:23:28.599 --> 00:23:36.119
So that part is very crucial because now men in

403
00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:41.680
the leadership roles are role modeling, training people their reports

404
00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:47.000
how to implement it when they get in that position. Yeah,

405
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:50.640
so what are the techniques you have seen that have

406
00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:56.599
worked for organizations to normalize and remove the stigmatization around caregiving.

407
00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:01.519
Yeah, there's several ways that we've seen that have been

408
00:24:01.599 --> 00:24:04.680
very effective. And some companies choose to do this, you know,

409
00:24:04.759 --> 00:24:07.839
kind of in house, meaning they've they've they've spent the

410
00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:10.880
time to train their managers in a way and give

411
00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:13.400
them the tools, like they have checklists. For example, when

412
00:24:13.400 --> 00:24:16.480
they find out that they have a employee who's going

413
00:24:16.519 --> 00:24:18.880
to be going out on leave, right, the things that

414
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:21.440
they need to do with the employee to prepare them

415
00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:24.960
for moving going on leave. At the same time, the

416
00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:27.680
thing the checklist for the manager to work with the

417
00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:29.759
team in terms of all right, so how are we

418
00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:32.880
redistributing that work? And that varies a lot depending on

419
00:24:32.920 --> 00:24:35.359
the type of work it is and if it's client

420
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:40.119
facing work or you know, certain project based work. You know, uh,

421
00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:42.519
do they have a unique role or set of talents

422
00:24:42.559 --> 00:24:45.319
that they're bringing to that project, And so there's different

423
00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:47.599
ways to do that. And again, companies will will have

424
00:24:47.599 --> 00:24:52.119
different tools that they uh will will give the manager

425
00:24:52.119 --> 00:24:54.759
and how to what are their options in terms of

426
00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:58.640
how do I replace that? Do I Are there opportunities

427
00:24:58.759 --> 00:25:01.279
to bring other people in? In some cases there are

428
00:25:02.119 --> 00:25:06.039
on a temporary basis. In some cases we're redistributing within

429
00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:08.480
the team, and that's just kind of a you know,

430
00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:11.079
you think about first responders for example, this is a

431
00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:15.200
very common one where they recognize that for somebody to

432
00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:17.799
be out on leave, that means that they're picking up

433
00:25:17.799 --> 00:25:20.039
the load, right, and they do that for each other.

434
00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:23.079
That's part of the expectation and the understanding of how

435
00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:26.119
they do that from a first responder perspective, because it's

436
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:28.599
really hard to bring in kind of temporary so to speak,

437
00:25:28.680 --> 00:25:31.839
to fill those gaps for them. But in other cases

438
00:25:31.880 --> 00:25:35.160
that's not the case that because of the type of

439
00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:39.799
work that they do, the highly specialized expertise, there's often

440
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:41.480
a lot of people out there on the market that

441
00:25:41.559 --> 00:25:43.559
do this fractional work and they're doing it on a

442
00:25:44.039 --> 00:25:46.799
piecemeal type basis or in the gig economy that's become

443
00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:50.160
so popular right that they can hire those people in

444
00:25:50.200 --> 00:25:52.480
and they have a list of people who they work

445
00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:55.119
with where they can do some of this and that's

446
00:25:55.119 --> 00:25:57.440
just the beginning of it. The second part really is

447
00:25:57.480 --> 00:26:00.559
the next phase of while the employees out and keeping

448
00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:03.640
that engagement going and thinking about the what is the

449
00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:06.079
type of communication we're going to be having, what are

450
00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:10.759
we going to be emphasizing, recognizing that the employee is

451
00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:14.799
actually learning and a chance to practice new skills while

452
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:17.839
they're on leave that they can transition back into the

453
00:26:17.880 --> 00:26:19.960
workplace with as well. And so that's one that I

454
00:26:19.960 --> 00:26:22.720
think a lot of people don't even recognize that, Hey,

455
00:26:22.759 --> 00:26:25.839
people are still gaining experience in a variety of different

456
00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:29.720
ways and maybe whether that's again working on managing a

457
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:34.599
myriad of caregiving needs, especially as you think about if

458
00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:37.960
you're caregiving for a maybe from an elder care perspective,

459
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:41.599
somebody with a dementia related disease, there's a lot of

460
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:44.039
there's a lot of coordination that has to happen there,

461
00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:48.119
and a lot of management of time and resources. And

462
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:51.839
so again those are things that can be used to

463
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:54.200
develop those and bring those back into the workplace and

464
00:26:54.279 --> 00:26:57.720
understanding that, I think there's also an opportunity to leverage

465
00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:01.200
caregivers when they come back in two. Again, there is

466
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:04.039
a support network within the workplace within your team to

467
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:05.839
be able to, hey, how did you do this when

468
00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:07.599
you were on leave? I have I have a very

469
00:27:07.640 --> 00:27:10.680
similar circumstance. Many of us are kind of going through this,

470
00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:12.799
sometimes for the first time, but others have had the

471
00:27:12.880 --> 00:27:15.200
experience of doing it. How do we how do we

472
00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:18.559
create a network of support network within our team or

473
00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:21.680
within the organization broadly, and that's often where employee resource

474
00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:23.559
groups come in. And then finally, I think one of

475
00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:27.039
the most important pieces is that transition back. Got to

476
00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:29.960
the got to have the training for the manager and

477
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:32.599
how they can how they're going to bring that employee

478
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:36.640
back again. What are the options. Maybe in some cases

479
00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:38.599
we need to bring somebody back in a part time

480
00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:41.359
and then kind of gradually work their hours up to

481
00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:43.920
full time again. Other cases they can bring them back

482
00:27:43.960 --> 00:27:46.799
into full time status, but because it's client facing, they've

483
00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:49.000
got to work them back into teams or working with

484
00:27:49.160 --> 00:27:54.279
clients in these different programs. Sometimes employers will work with

485
00:27:54.799 --> 00:27:58.440
consultants and third party right so outside the organization to

486
00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:01.079
do some of this to facility some of that for them,

487
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:03.839
and they're doing the coaching at the same time, they're

488
00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:07.519
helping to manage this within their teams across the organization,

489
00:28:07.640 --> 00:28:09.880
so they can build some of that those skill sets

490
00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:11.640
internally in the organization as well.

491
00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:16.000
Mm hmmm. So these are some very crucial points to

492
00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:18.440
keep in mind. So as we are talking about let's

493
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:22.640
say some of the organizations have implemented some of that,

494
00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:27.119
but what are some questions they can ask before they

495
00:28:27.119 --> 00:28:30.119
start measuring progress towards the gender fair workplace?

496
00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:38.200
Mmm? Boy, so many questions and you know, part of it,

497
00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:42.359
part of it, you know, could be around caregiving, you know.

498
00:28:42.519 --> 00:28:45.559
So if we're talking about that, how about starting with

499
00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:50.559
a caregiving census. A lot of organizations have no idea

500
00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:56.039
who among their employees have caregiving obligations, and it can

501
00:28:56.119 --> 00:28:59.759
be it can be a sticky situation because the employers

502
00:28:59.799 --> 00:29:03.440
of afraid to ask who has caregiving They don't want

503
00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:08.319
to violate privacy and their concern maybe about legal ramifications.

504
00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:13.440
Employees also are reluctant to respond, right because they don't

505
00:29:13.480 --> 00:29:16.000
trust the organization. Yet, what are you going to do

506
00:29:16.039 --> 00:29:19.880
with this information? Will I be stigmatized if I self

507
00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:23.039
identify as a caregiver? So I've got to start with

508
00:29:23.079 --> 00:29:28.240
some cultural change and building trust make this normative. So

509
00:29:28.759 --> 00:29:33.160
how about just starting with a census to find out

510
00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:36.720
related to that. If we're talking about gender fairness more broadly,

511
00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:41.799
div yet, how about conducting listening sessions with women. We

512
00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:46.079
got to interview one person who said a herculean major

513
00:29:46.839 --> 00:29:50.359
leadership mistake here is to assume that women are doing

514
00:29:50.440 --> 00:29:54.440
fine in your organization just because you're not hearing complaints

515
00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:58.680
or you're not receiving data, probably because you're not asking

516
00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:02.680
for it about how women are experiencing the workplace. Don't

517
00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:08.680
assume they're doing okay. You know, conduct anonymous surveys, have

518
00:30:08.839 --> 00:30:13.000
listening sessions, have listening sessions with women across the organization

519
00:30:13.079 --> 00:30:16.640
at different levels, and ask them how they're doing. You

520
00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:19.240
can have a third party person do this, you can

521
00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:22.720
have somebody else do it. Start going to the women's

522
00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:27.599
ERG meetings and listen to women about how they're experiencing

523
00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:31.039
your workplace. It's going to be an epiphany for you

524
00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:34.079
when you start. You know, once they trust you, they're

525
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:36.720
going to share with you where you have work to do,

526
00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:41.160
what's not going well. And then how about just looking

527
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:45.799
at bottom line factors. If you want to start some

528
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:49.720
gender fairness process, how about just starting at the beginning

529
00:30:49.759 --> 00:30:54.880
with taking a hard look at your current onboarding of women.

530
00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:58.079
How are you doing with targets to getting to gender

531
00:30:58.119 --> 00:31:01.440
balance at each level? How are you doing with retention?

532
00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:04.799
How are you doing with advancement? If you don't have

533
00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:07.640
a baseline for those numbers, it's going to be very

534
00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:10.440
hard to assess how you're making progress.

535
00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:16.279
It thanks for a deeper reflection. Yeah, I'm seeing where

536
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:18.559
you're at, David. You're sharing something.

537
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:21.200
Yeah, I think there's and there's some intersections within that

538
00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:23.920
that are really important and making sure that we're kind of,

539
00:31:24.519 --> 00:31:27.000
you know, as Brad's giving these questions that we don't

540
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:29.960
stop there right there, there's another level of question of

541
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:33.759
disaggregating the data a little bit and so understanding where

542
00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:37.279
as we think about retention, So retention figures can get

543
00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:39.240
masked in a lot of different ways, right as we

544
00:31:39.319 --> 00:31:41.920
as we aggregate the data, and so can we look

545
00:31:41.960 --> 00:31:44.359
at that for different groups of people? So for example,

546
00:31:44.359 --> 00:31:46.680
if we're looking at from a gender perspective, that's great,

547
00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:49.839
but within women, for example, can we look at how

548
00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:52.240
maybe the differences are there for women of color?

549
00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:52.799
Right?

550
00:31:52.839 --> 00:31:55.200
Can we look at regions? So if you have a again,

551
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:58.799
lots of global companies today, can we look at different

552
00:31:58.839 --> 00:32:01.799
regions and is it is it working differently in one

553
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:04.559
region versus another? And if one's if there's one reason

554
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:07.400
that stands out as being really great, why is that

555
00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:09.400
can we what can we learn from that region?

556
00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:10.039
Uh?

557
00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:13.720
Same thing from a functionality perspective looking at different elements

558
00:32:13.720 --> 00:32:17.000
of the business that you run. Are women doing great

559
00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:19.000
in one place and men are doing great in another?

560
00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:21.680
And you know why are there differences? As we look

561
00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:25.079
at kind of the functionality uh component of that, and

562
00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:28.759
we see we have great uh, you know, equity when

563
00:32:28.759 --> 00:32:32.680
it comes to maybe around marketing and communications or HR

564
00:32:32.920 --> 00:32:38.200
or legal. But when I go over to sales or operations, engineering,

565
00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:42.240
R and D, suddenly I'm seeing these these huge deficits

566
00:32:42.279 --> 00:32:43.920
where it's like, where are all the women? Why aren't

567
00:32:43.960 --> 00:32:46.200
there as many women over here as there are there?

568
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:48.960
And so then beginning to ask those more those deeper

569
00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:52.720
questions about that and and understanding what you're trying to achieve.

570
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:54.319
And I think that at the end of the day,

571
00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:57.880
when leaders really ask the hard questions and dig deep

572
00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:01.039
in there, then they'll begin to start to parse out

573
00:33:01.079 --> 00:33:04.039
some of the either places where they need more information

574
00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:07.400
or too they'll start to learn some of the practices

575
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:10.160
that maybe are causing that or that are holding them

576
00:33:10.200 --> 00:33:12.640
back from achieving what they're really trying to do.

577
00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:15.920
And that's such an elevant point because so many times

578
00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:18.480
what happens is that you do surveys and you get

579
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:22.039
that data. It can mask a lot of underlying problems.

580
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:25.599
But as you are recommending where you segment the data,

581
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:30.039
where you parse it out, you can pinpoint where things

582
00:33:30.039 --> 00:33:33.279
are working and where they're not working. And as you

583
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:38.799
do it, even a deeper reflection, you can definitely put

584
00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:42.839
your finger on the pulse that oh, it's working in

585
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:46.640
this region or in this department, but it's not over here.

586
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:49.599
So as we talk about you know, we have talked

587
00:33:49.599 --> 00:33:54.400
about culture, we have talked about how can we implement techniques,

588
00:33:54.759 --> 00:33:58.279
you'll also talk about result only work environment. Can you

589
00:33:58.319 --> 00:33:59.359
shed some light on that.

590
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:03.640
Yeah, this is an interesting one, I think, especially in

591
00:34:04.119 --> 00:34:06.559
you know, this has been around for a while now,

592
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:10.880
talking about performance measures and looking at the focus on

593
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:14.639
the product or the result, right, the outcome as opposed

594
00:34:14.679 --> 00:34:17.519
to a lot of the other things that get measured

595
00:34:17.559 --> 00:34:20.639
when we think about you know, evaluations, right, as we

596
00:34:20.679 --> 00:34:23.199
think about all the different evaluation systems that we use

597
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:26.719
out there. How often are they focused in on this

598
00:34:26.920 --> 00:34:31.119
results piece of it? And this is important especially, I

599
00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:34.199
think in this kind of post COVID world, as we

600
00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:38.119
again we learned what remote work was all about. For

601
00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:40.880
those who didn't know what it was before COVID, they

602
00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:46.280
certainly do now we've all experienced it, and also understanding

603
00:34:46.599 --> 00:34:50.760
what the flexibility around remote work provides, and so thinking

604
00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:54.880
about what flex work arrangements look like and where they

605
00:34:54.920 --> 00:34:59.079
add value for different employees and to the business overall.

606
00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:01.320
So I think that that's a you know, that's an

607
00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:03.880
important part of this and the and the results only

608
00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:07.159
work environment. So moving forward, you know, when you have

609
00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:10.599
people who are working remotely, how do you measure their

610
00:35:10.679 --> 00:35:14.199
work performance differently or the same as you do if

611
00:35:14.199 --> 00:35:17.119
they're in person? Right where I'm seeing them all the

612
00:35:17.239 --> 00:35:20.559
time in a in an in person environment, I'm not

613
00:35:20.599 --> 00:35:23.960
seeing them all the time necessarily in a remote work environment.

614
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:27.760
So what does where? What are the limitations in being

615
00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:31.760
able to assess performance on an individual basis or even

616
00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:34.039
a team basis as we go through that, and so

617
00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:36.719
this is where we've had to spend more time I

618
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:40.599
think really leveraging some of the best practices out there

619
00:35:40.599 --> 00:35:44.519
in terms of how do we measure not just the

620
00:35:44.679 --> 00:35:47.760
number of hours worked in a day, which tells me

621
00:35:48.880 --> 00:35:52.000
maybe level of effort. Maybe I don't know, it could

622
00:35:52.039 --> 00:35:55.320
tell us that, but really it's it's not really telling me.

623
00:35:55.960 --> 00:35:58.239
What I really want to know is is how productive

624
00:35:58.280 --> 00:36:01.360
were you as an employee? How what did you contribute

625
00:36:01.400 --> 00:36:03.880
to the team? What do you contribute to the organization?

626
00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:08.960
How did you further our mission or our business operations

627
00:36:09.559 --> 00:36:12.280
in that twelve hours or whatever many hours you worked

628
00:36:12.599 --> 00:36:15.599
in that period of time? I don't know, right, And

629
00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:18.840
so we if we start, we're measuring things like number

630
00:36:18.880 --> 00:36:22.159
of hours work, numbers of days work. Those things don't

631
00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:25.480
tell us the same thing as that. And there were

632
00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:28.400
lots of great examples, and maybe I'll let Brad share

633
00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:31.199
he has a couple of favorite examples there around what

634
00:36:31.320 --> 00:36:35.400
it means to you know, expect people to be in

635
00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:38.239
person one and then and not just in person, but

636
00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:41.159
be there for long hours. But there's really not a

637
00:36:41.159 --> 00:36:43.440
whole lot of productivity going on there if we're not

638
00:36:43.559 --> 00:36:44.599
measuring it properly.

639
00:36:45.639 --> 00:36:48.320
So here's here's a terrific example for you, Tivia. We

640
00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:51.840
got to interview Bridget Shulty and she said, Hey, when

641
00:36:51.880 --> 00:36:55.159
I was at the Washington Post as a journalist, I

642
00:36:55.239 --> 00:36:58.840
had an editor who would come around the newsroom floor

643
00:36:58.920 --> 00:37:03.159
at like, you know, for midnight, and he would later say,

644
00:37:03.239 --> 00:37:05.719
I know who all my good reporters are because they're

645
00:37:05.719 --> 00:37:08.920
here at eleven o'clock at night, right working on stories.

646
00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:12.400
And her thought was, you should know who your good

647
00:37:12.440 --> 00:37:15.440
reporters are by the quality of their journalism and the

648
00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:19.159
quality of their stories. And she said, most of those

649
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:23.239
people sitting there at midnight on their computers were dudes

650
00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:27.639
with no caregiving obligations who were playing solitaire right. They

651
00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:31.239
weren't being productive. So it's a terrible measure. And this

652
00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:36.119
is why the results only work environment can be so helpful.

653
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:40.199
We had another interviewee say, you know, when I tried

654
00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:45.480
to propose much more generous flex work policies, I had

655
00:37:45.480 --> 00:37:48.480
a couple of male managers push back and say, oh,

656
00:37:48.519 --> 00:37:51.719
I'm not letting her take flex work because I know

657
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:55.920
she's just going to be doing the laundry. Right. And

658
00:37:56.159 --> 00:38:00.519
later that day she finds these same two dudes, you know,

659
00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:04.119
standing around the water cooler spending a half hour talking

660
00:38:04.159 --> 00:38:07.239
about Monday night football, and she walked up to them

661
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:09.599
and just said, you guys are doing laundry right now

662
00:38:09.679 --> 00:38:12.599
you realize that, right, you're doing laundry. And it was

663
00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:17.519
such I hope an epiphany for those guys, you know,

664
00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:21.920
to think about their biases related to flex work. So

665
00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:26.239
we have work to do in changing presenteeism narratives. Right.

666
00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:30.320
We tend to assume that the most productive effective employees

667
00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:32.519
are the ones we see all the time or are

668
00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:36.559
sitting in their office, and it's not correlated often with

669
00:38:36.639 --> 00:38:38.039
their actual contribution.

670
00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:41.880
Absolutely, And here's the thing. A lot of companies are

671
00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:46.400
recognizing that, and for that reason, they're providing their employees

672
00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:49.960
unlimited PTO. They can take as much time off as

673
00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:53.159
they want. And the focus is productivity, the focus is results.

674
00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:58.119
The focus is that timeliness and that has gone long

675
00:38:58.239 --> 00:39:01.079
ways for a lot of different companies because employees can

676
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:06.599
be present but mentally absent. So we have talked a

677
00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:10.679
lot about things, where can people reach you, how can

678
00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:14.079
they find you? Share, share with us about your books?

679
00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:18.400
Yeah, certainly so. I think two big things. Go to

680
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:22.880
our website and that's workplace Allies dot com, and you

681
00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:25.079
can find out about the work Dave and I have

682
00:39:25.239 --> 00:39:28.960
been doing and find out about the books we've written,

683
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:32.880
and then also take a look at our forthcoming book,

684
00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:38.920
Fair Share, comes out January. I'm sorry, June thirtieth coming.

685
00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:41.679
I think I'm stressed out because it's coming fast the

686
00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:45.000
end of this month, June thirtieth, fair Share. This is

687
00:39:45.079 --> 00:39:47.639
kind of a deep dive into much of what we've

688
00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:51.960
been talking about today, Diva. How do we change the workplace,

689
00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:55.639
change the way we think about work, how work gets done,

690
00:39:56.760 --> 00:40:01.400
you know, think about policies connected to giving so that

691
00:40:01.960 --> 00:40:04.639
we can invite men into their full power at home

692
00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:08.679
and then invite women into their full power in the workplace.

693
00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:11.840
We want to get to that kind of equal caregiving,

694
00:40:12.519 --> 00:40:17.639
equal work opportunity for both genders. So that's our new book.

695
00:40:18.599 --> 00:40:22.239
Yeah, and please reach out to us on social media

696
00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:25.360
on LinkedIn. We'll keep the conversation going and we look

697
00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:28.239
forward to engaging with everybody and talking more about how

698
00:40:28.280 --> 00:40:29.360
to get your fair share?

699
00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:35.440
Is there any last quick nugget sayall would like to share?

700
00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:39.480
Dave, any last nugget?

701
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:41.239
Yeah?

702
00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:45.239
I think one of the most important things that I

703
00:40:45.320 --> 00:40:48.719
took away from the work that we did in writing

704
00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:54.119
Fair Share was that we all do caregiving. We all

705
00:40:54.280 --> 00:40:56.880
associate ourselves as you know, and think of ourselves as

706
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caregivers at some point in our careers and our lives,

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especially in our work careers, and that remember that that's

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true for everybody else that you work with or who

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works for you. And it's time, especially you know, in

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the United States, for us to start recognizing this is

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an important part of who we are. We have these

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obligations and needs and we need to be able to

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lean into those, one because there's not a lot of

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great caregiving support in this country. And two, when we

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are allowed to do that, it makes us better employees too,

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It makes us more committed to the work that we do.

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And so let's help each other in doing that.

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00:41:37.159 --> 00:41:41.639
Absolutely. Thank you David, Thank you Brett for joining us, because,

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as you mentioned, caregiving is important, whether it's as a parent,

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00:41:47.679 --> 00:41:52.440
as a child, taking care of your elderly parents, or

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00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:55.639
for someone else in your life, whether it's a friend

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00:41:55.719 --> 00:41:59.599
or whoever it is, it's an important part and it's

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00:41:59.639 --> 00:42:02.639
the kindess that we need to extend not only towards

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00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:06.119
ourselves but to our colleagues and people who are in

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00:42:06.159 --> 00:42:09.039
that space. So thank you for joining us, and thank

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00:42:09.079 --> 00:42:10.719
you one of the audience for being part of her

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00:42:10.760 --> 00:42:13.280
show because without you, the show would not be possible.

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00:42:14.119 --> 00:42:16.159
Please reach out and let us know how we can

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00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:19.880
serve and support you so that you can live the

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00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:23.840
life that you deserve. And thank you on a tech

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00:42:23.920 --> 00:42:26.960
genius for making the ship possible. Be well and take care.

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00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:30.199
Thank you for being part of Beyond Confidence with your host,

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00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:32.800
Divva Park, we hope you have learned more about how

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00:42:32.840 --> 00:42:35.400
to start living the life you want. Each week on

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00:42:35.480 --> 00:42:38.960
Beyond Confidence, you hear stories of real people who've experienced

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00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:43.159
growth by overcoming their fears and building meaningful relationships. During

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00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:46.320
Beyond Confidence, Va Park shares what happened to her when

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00:42:46.360 --> 00:42:48.760
she stepped out of her comfort zone to work directly

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00:42:48.800 --> 00:42:51.880
with people across the globe. She not only coaches people

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00:42:51.880 --> 00:42:55.400
how to form HERD connections, but also transform relationships to

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00:42:55.480 --> 00:42:58.880
mutually beneficial partnerships as they strive to live the life

742
00:42:58.880 --> 00:43:01.360
they want. You are ready to live the life you

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00:43:01.400 --> 00:43:06.239
want and leverage your strengths. Learn more at www Dotwpark

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00:43:06.280 --> 00:43:09.559
dot com and you can connect with w at contact

745
00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:12.960
at dwpark dot com. We look forward to you joining

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00:43:13.000 --> 00:43:13.679
us next week.