Reshaping the Work Place

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Radio. This is Beyond Confidence with
your host Dvaparnk. Do you want to

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live a more fulfilling life? Do
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This is beyond confidence and now here's your

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host a Park. Good morning.
It's Tuesday, and it's one of the

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best times for me because I get
to be with you, and not only

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that, I get to connect with
new guests. And to me, life

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is all about learning evolving the experience
because as we live our lives, what

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we experience is our lives and what
we put it into the experiences that becomes

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our lives as well. And here's
what I can share with you all is

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that thank you, thank you,
thank you for everyone who has got our

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books, because partial profits from our
books go to help entrepreneurs all across the

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globe and I can do that because
of you. So if you've not got

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your books, please get one of
our books. I always find that expert

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to influencer and the entrepreneur's gotten are
the most valuable. And of course there

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are the books, but those are
one of my favorite books out of the

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book that I have written. And
remember to keep the kindness circle going taken

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hours credit over a month and be
kind to someone with no strings attached.

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So let's invite our guests. Welcome, Phil Adivia. How are you?

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Thank you for having me on.
Oh it's good to have you so,

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Phil. Usually we start out from
childhood. Do you recall a person or

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a moment from your childhood that left
a mark on you? Oh? Bunch.

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But in preparation for this show,
I was thinking about technology, and

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I think it was twelve years old
when I got a Commodore sixty four,

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which is now laughable when it comes
to compute power, and it was just

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really drawn to what it can do. And I've always been a bit of

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an early adopter when it came to
technologies like smartphone and the web. Back

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in nineteen ninety five, some of
my friends from grad school said, when

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you could register for courses online at
Cornell with this port called bare Access,

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you said you were just all you
wouldn't shut up about it. So I

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think, yeah, having gone to
Carnegie Mellon as an undergrad, I've always

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appreciated technology, and when I got
into the workforce, it still intrigued me

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because there was many times, as
I'm sure we'll talk about today, a

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better way of doing something, but
people either wouldn't adopt it or would actively

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fight it. So I've been with
my books and consulting experiences thinking a lot

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about change management because as I write
in the new book, and I'm sure

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we'll talk about this later, and
I just don't see how we're going back

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to pre pandemic times. Absolutely your
spot on and when you were talking with

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the computers. I still remember one
of the monitors that I had. It

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was gigantic, and of course in
the initial stages there were no laptops,

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humongous like you know, gosh,
it occupied my whole desk, those big

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R team monitors, and yeah,
it was I remember on some consulting assignments

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it was difficult to find place to
write something down on a piece of paper

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because between the keyboard the monitor of
the mouse pad. And now with our

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flat screens and our tablets and our
phones and our watches and god knows what

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else is coming. It's really remarkable
how technology has progressed. But I find

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feel free to chime in that a
lot of times the issues are very similar,

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whether it's around change management or free
speech or organizational politics or whatever.

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I think a lot about Nietsche's quote
time is a flat circle. Yeah,

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you're absolutely right, And because we
forget that behind the technology, people are

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still people, and if we are
looking at the evolution, it takes long

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time. I mean, if we
look at ourselves, the humans on the

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evolution of Earth, we have just
emerged. I don't recall where I read

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this, but it was either on
somebody's podcast or I read it somewhere.

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We showed up around like eleven forty
five PM. If we were to consider

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a whole year from January one to
December thirty first of Earth's life, we

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showed up at like eleven forty five. So our brains are still developing,

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and brains still does not recognize the
technology. So now we're talking about You

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brought up a good point about pre
pandemic, and of course just a couple

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of year years back, it was
we heard about a couple of trends.

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When was the great resignation, the
quiet quitting where it was employee market after

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a very very long time. Usually
it's been an employer's market. So now

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we are going back to it,
and there are a lot of companies that

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are mandating presents all five days or
hybrid work. So what are your thoughts

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on that? Yeah, well,
I think Diva that those who tried to

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force everyone to the office five days
a week will fail. But to me,

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it's not unreasonable. In fact,
it's quite reasonable for management to prod

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people into the office once in a
while. Now we can talk about the

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number of days that people should spend
in the office, but I think that

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long ago, and the data certainly
backs this. Microsoft has done a ton

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of studies about employee productivity. Not
only when we had to work exclusively remotely

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during lockdown, were we as productive
as we were going to the office.

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In some cases we are more so. The average American pre pandemic commute was

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thirty seven minutes. Well, if
you get that back even three days a

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week, all right, you're talking
about, how's my math two hundred and

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twenty five or take minutes. So
it's what you know, close to four

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hours a week that you could have
to work if you want, but to

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also take care of your children,
or spend time with your significant other,

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play golf or tennis or chess,
whatever you like to do. So I

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understand why companies like Disney, Twitter
Salesforce or mandating people come into the office,

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but to me, it's it's very
short sighted to mandate that all the

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work needs to be done in the
office. I mean, you could argue

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that that wasn't true ten years ago. It's certainly not true now we've got

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powerful broadband connectivity. It's not like
we've used mainframe computers nearly as much.

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In an error of cloud computing.
We can take out our phones and for

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better or worse, be productive anytime
anyway. But I think it's misplaced in

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companies like Twitter that insist upon that
will eventually see a talent drain. And

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the more that I researched the new
book, the more that became obvious.

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And companies that embrace hybrid and remote
work, I would argue, would have

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an advantage over companies that don't.
I saw a statistic I think it was

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from pay Scale that the average employee
will accept something like eight percent less in

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salary for flexibility. So if you
think about it, employees are happier and

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potentially less expensive, not to mention
things that I'm sure we'll talk about later,

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like reduced real estate costs and carbon
footprint and all that. Oh.

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Absolutely, you definitely brought up a
good point. So let's talk about the

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millennials and ZGEN, especially ZGEN,
because what has happened during pandemic is that

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they do have a desire to travel, especially zgen. So several of my

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clients were used to working remotely,
living in a country there the living cost

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was pretty low. And now when
you are coming back to hybrid work,

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how can the employers handle that segment
of talent. Yeah, it's I think

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a lot easier said than done.
I'd start off with reconfiguring offices. We

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don't want to if we've got a
desk at home and we're heads down coding

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or writing or designing for designers,
why do we need to do that if

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we're in an office. So if
some of the companies I studied for the

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new book, Cisco, Marriott,
Samsung have spent quite a bit of money

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reconfiguring the offices so they're more destinations. And Cisco is one of my favorite

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examples. Prior to the pandemic in
Manhattan, they had spent I think they'd

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allocated roughly seventy percent of the physical
space towards individual work and thirty for group

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or collaborative work. But when they
realize that we weren't going back to traditional

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pre pandemic work customs, they spent
a lot of money inverting it. So

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thirty percent of the work is dedicated
or the space excuse me, is dedicated

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to individual work, and the other
seventy is for group work. So I

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do think to your point that there
is this need of some folks to want

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to connect with their colleagues. Certainly, if you're a manager, it's very

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difficult to get a sense of someone
in an exclusively remote way, even though

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there are tools that you can use
in Slack and Microsoft teams and all sorts

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of survey analytics type tools that will
give you a pulse. But I'd argue

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that there's something lost over zoom.
You seem please talking to me now,

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but for all I know, I'm
irritating you. Of course, people can

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always dissemble in person, but I
think it behooves millennials and younger folks as

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well to get to the office.
That way, you build up that social

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capital with folks in a way that
you just cannot do by saying a bunch

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of messages in Slacker teams or microfts, Microsoft teams resumed. So it's a

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challenge. Though we've proven that we
can be productive out of the office,

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so I think we need to give
employees a reason to go there. Beyond

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just threatening them with the stick man. Dave. Now, I completely agree

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with you, and what you said
is that there is definitely something lost over

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Zoom because there's nothing like sitting across
a person. And just as one of

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my personal experiences, I stood a
lot of speaking engagements prior to the pandemic.

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Pandemic came, you became so comfortable
in the pajamas and maybe just having

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a T shirt on the top,
like you know, a more professional and

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you're moving around, and that comfort
became. And brain is lazy. So

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brain loves to be just lazy and
you know, do the minimum. Now

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that said, it was amazing that
during twenty twenty one or it was twenty

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twenty two, I'm not sure.
I was doing a keynote speaking for one

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of kicking off one of the company's
annual event and when I was there and

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just having that energy in the room, so yes, you know we are

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talking over here. And I love
doing podcasts where yes, with Zoom,

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we can reach lots and lots of
people, and that's what the advantage is

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of digital. And that said,
when I was speaking in that auditorium with

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two hundred people and just the energy
flowing that interaction and engagement between us.

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It's so palpable and it cannot be
replaced what you're on zoom. So a

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question that pops up the chair of
one of my clients kind of went through

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is that they would say that,
okay, company has given us the option

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we can come any day, but
then how do we know what days my

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team members are coming or my manager
is coming. So it's so hard to

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coordinate. So what would you advise
or what have you found writing your new

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book to circumvent that situation. Well, a lot of companies, as you

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probably know Diva, are landing on
core days, so they'll want people there.

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I think a common framework right now
is Monday, Tuesday, Thursday,

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And I was reading a Wall Street
Journal article a couple of weeks ago about

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how Monday is the new battleground.
No one wants to be in the office

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on Friday, but yes, there
needs to be some degree of coordination.

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My previous book, Low Code,
No Code describes the need for new apps

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that the pandemic created. Prior to
the pandemic, yes, people worked in

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a hybrid fashion or remotely, but
not to the same extent, and the

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data certainly bears that out. Now
you're right, we do need an app

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to track who's going to be in
the office for a bunch of reasons.

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First, we don't want to schlep
to the office an hour each way to

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find that my team isn't there.
Right, Why did I come in upon

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the only one? Right? Beyond
that, and I'm sure we'll talk about

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this later, we have to acknowledge
the fact that some companies are leaning into

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this. If you look at office
occupancy rates, they're something like fifty percent

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in cities, it varies, and
that's in stark contrast to sporting events or

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airlines. They're basically back to pre
pandemic capacity. But offices are not.

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And a lot of the leases that
landlords signed prior to the pandemic are going

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to lapse within the next two to
three years. It will be very interesting

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to see how many of them renegotiate
or just walk away. And that's a

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bigger discussion. But the point is
that if we do have to answer your

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question, only room for a hundred
people and one hundred and twenty come in,

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you could imagine the fallout of people
going. Hold on a second,

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I just commuted in an hour and
you don't have a place for me to

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sit. That doesn't make a lot
of sense. So getting back to the

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previous question, it does behoove companies
to really reimagine the workplace. You know,

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why are people coming in? If
it is to conduct training or meet

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colleagues or brainstorm or something along those
lines, I'm all in right, I'll

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happily commute. But if it's just
to be seen because my manager doesn't trust

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me, or if it's to sit
down with my keyboard and my headphones on

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and just write because I'm a writer
or speaker, well we can do that

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from anywhere. So it makes it
more difficult than proximity bias is a real

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thing. Hybrid is hard. Say
what you will about compelling people into the

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office every day, but at least
everyone's on the same footing. You know

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what happens when and I don't have
the answer to this question, but what

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happens when some managers are more laxed
when it comes to remote work and you

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say, well, how come Manager
A lets you do this, but Manager

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B doesn't. And one size isn't
going to fit all. If I work

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in physical security or I'm a chef, I probably need to be on premised

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most of the time. I guess
I can cook from home and bring it,

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but let's leave that out. But
if I'm a coder, I might

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need to come in the office once
a week, once a month, once

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a quarter. I'd still argue that
it makes sense. And companies like Automatic,

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the company behind WordPress that runs about
forty three percent of the web,

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is distributed and they'll get everyone together
when it's there's not a pandemic in exotic

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locales like Grease or Monaco or something, because there is benefit of of knowing

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your colleagues and even if you just
have a drink or break bread or make

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jokes or play some cheesy icebreaker.
So, yeah, there's some This is

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my fourth book on the Future of
work, and there probably are more in

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me. So a lot of things
that we took for granted prior to the

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COVID nineteen outbreak we're really re examining. Yeah, and I really love how

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you have mentioned about that, Like
it depends on the job, it depends

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on the manager, and it depends
upon how you are creating that environ and

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creating that experience for your team.
So just as an example, like you

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know, what we did was one
of my clients who was a director and

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he had a team of managers.
So what they did was for their meeting

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for their division, they designated days
and then the individual managers sat down and

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brought in all the team members and
said like, okay, what are the

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two days where everybody comes in so
we can overcome this issue, like there's

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somebody coming on one day, somebody's
not coming. So people knew and people

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know, like you know, when
people are coming in, they look forward

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to it and anything that they need
to tackle with their brainstorming together, that's

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when they make use of the days
and they maximize it because then that brings

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them together. And as you talked
about, that manager can get the pulse

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who's engaged who's not, because these
are the times when you can definitely find

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out. So you talk about fractions
that not the whole real estate in hiring

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has changed. Let's hear some more
about that. Yeah, many of the

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forces in my new book Divia are
i won't want to say obvious, but

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certainly topical, things like artificial intelligence, the generative type like chat, GPT,

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mid journey stability II. My LinkedIn
feed as I'm sure yours is as

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well, is just filled with those
types of things an inflation's topical employee empowerment,

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but blockchain and immersive technologies like Apple's
new vision pro may not be on

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everyone's radar, but the one that
people consistently when they look at the cover

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of the book and there's a series
of icons, nobody gets the last one,

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which is a fraction. It's X
over Y. They said, what

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do you mean by that? And
it really boils down to two parts.

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First, you're right, this notion
of fractional real estate or a fractional office.

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I mean, there's been coworking spaces
for twenty or thirty years at companies

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like we work really ushered in that
error and made us rethink what an office

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could be. You know, should
it be ugly gray cubicles? Well we

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don't. Not only can we create
I would argue a better qualitative office,

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but we don't need as much or
as many of them, or certainly as

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much square footage. So there are
plenty of startups that are figuring out ways

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to split the office creatively. For
example, if you're only going to have

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employees in the office Monday, Wednesday, Friday, you really don't need an

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office Tuesday and Thursday, so you
could purchase the building or rent it and

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then sublease. Said a note Dropbox
made I think it was last year for

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one quarter something. It was in
the tens of millions of dollars of revenue

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subleasing their space because they didn't need
it. But if you think about it,

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kind of like cloud computing, you
pay as you go. So if

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you have a big bill from Amazon
Web Services or Microsoft as you're means that

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your employees and customers use the services
a lot. That's a lot more efficient

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economically than spending a ton of money
on servers and only using ten percent of

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them. The other aspect of fractions
DIVA is around employment, and when you

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think about a chief legal officer,
chief marketing officer, no one would say

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that Meta Amazon, Microsoft would get
away with that. In fact, that

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many of those companies are so large
that there may be a CFO or COO

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of a particular division. I know
that when Salesforce purchased Slack a couple years

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ago for twenty eight billion dollars,
they kept the Slack management team on and

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the roles who still CEO or CFO
Slack because it's such a big entity.

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But if you think about the smaller
companies three four hundred people, which really

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isn't that small if you think about
it. Perhaps they're dealing with a number

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of legal issues around generative AI,
and is their copyright infringement. Well,

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a chief legal officer could run you
four hundred thousand dollars a year, plus

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bonus benefits, stock options if you're
issuing them. Could you afford someone two

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or three days a week? Someone
who's effectively locked in has got a company

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xyz dot com email address, but
is only working a couple of days a

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week. Certainly, side hustles are
pretty prevalent, and if you think about

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generative AI, I think it was
Gartner, McKinsey or Goldman Sachs, I

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forget which one, but released to
study maybe two months ago that these tools

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should be able to automate around twenty
five percent of the average white collars work.

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Then maybe that frees you up two
days a week to not have to

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deal with some of the administrative things. Or when it comes to writing,

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maybe one of these generative AI tools
can generate a draft of something and you're

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just editing the draft as opposed to
starting from scratch. Ditto for code or

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images. So fractions are a bit
less than obvious for most folks, but

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I'm glad that I included that one
because it does represent kind of a natural

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extension of where we've been going.
I'll be the first person admit that temporary

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employment is not new, but typically
we haven't had it at senior levels,

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but that's starting to change. Yeah, No, definitely, And it's important

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to pay attention to the trends that
will be merging because it helps both the

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organizations as well as employees or professionals
prepared for the new things that are coming.

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And here's the thing you mentioned about
being an early adopter. I'm an

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early adopter too, an unless and
that involves a play of different aspects.

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So one is the mindset like oh
no, no, no, I'm not

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I'm going to resist anything new that's
going to come in, and that makes

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the transition even more harder orsus if
you're prepared that Okay, sitting down.

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So let's I want to put it
back to you. Let's say there are

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employees. They're different. So let's
see people who are in the thirties,

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forties, who still have twenty five
thirty years of professional life left. How

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can they prepare for this emerging trend
of fractions, Well, I know you're

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at a high level. It's important
to be aware of it, and you

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can deny that these things are happening, but I think that that's silly.

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In fact, towards the end of
the book, I lay out a number

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of different strategies, and hope is
not an option. I agree with you.

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It depends on where you are.
If you're fifty eight years old,

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you may be able to avoid a
lot of these trends for two or three

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years. But I agree with you. If you are in your even mid

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forties, never mind younger, you're
going to deal with fractions and generative AI,

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automation, inflations, all the forces
that I cover in the book.

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I just don't see any way around
it. So with respect to fractions,

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you're right going back to one of
your earlier point and so it takes us

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a while to get our arms around
these things. You don't just hit a

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switch. If there's anything that I've
learned about enterprise technology over the last oh

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gosh, now twenty five years,
is that it takes time for people to

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change. Yes, you hear about
apps like reels that go live, and

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I think was it within seven days? They had ten million users, and

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there is I think, if you
look at the last I don't know,

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fifteen twenty years, an increase in
the speed of how we adopt these tools.

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That's pretty and arguable at this point, but it's just not as weird

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as people think it is. And
when I see on LinkedIn these groups dedicated

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to fractional leadership or fractional real estate, you can fight it, but you

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can also see it as an opportunity. Maybe you do have a passion as

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a musician, but you're not going
to make a living at it because it's

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a very difficult thing to do.
Ditto for a writer. So embracing a

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side hust or another vocation, even
if you don't necessarily make a lot of

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money on it, may not be
such a bad thing if I could get

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I talked to my neighbor about this. He said, if I could do

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my job in fort days a week
and make twenty five percent or twenty percent

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less money to spend more time with
my wife and kids, I would love

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to do that. So I guess
that you could fear these things, or

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you can kind of understand them and
try to lean into them. And I

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don't think that full time employment is
going the way of the DODO. But

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I do think if you ask me
this question in five years, that we

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are at the precipice of this trend
of fractions. Maybe it's a little bit

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less hyped than automation or a generative
I tools like chat GBT, But Einstein

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said I think it was Einstein.
The most powerful law in the universe is

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compounding or exponential growth or compounding interest. So if we see something at one

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or two and it goes from two
to four, four to eight, before

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you know it, it gets really
large. And why not. The way

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I see it is that so many
times people are in their jobs and they

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don't find meaning in their work.
They're doing it and they I've had so

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many of my clients tell me,
oh, I don't find the meaning in

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work, and at the same time, I'm not going to be able to

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make the money I want the lifestyle
I want to live doing the things that

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I'm passionate about. So that just
kind of shows us that, you know,

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if you're bringing in generative AI,
if it can free you up for

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that, even if it's a day, and if you're doing that side hustle,

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so you're living a fuller and richer
life. So why not so being

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open to it, and that's why
it's important to have conversations like this.

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And you talk about robots coming in
and that's going to be impacting the white

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collar workers. So how did you
arrive at that inclusion and the research?

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And if you can give us more
context, would that would be great?

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Yeah. Automation to me, NIVIA
is a cousin of generative AI because if

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you think about and I discuss automation
a bit in my previous book, Low

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Code, No Code. But there's
a great quote from I think it was

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a British politician I forgot the name. It was something like automation frees us

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to be more human because it is
not fulfilling work. I agree to do

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something in a very manual way.
I can remember, gosh, now,

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twenty five years ago, I was
working at a big pharma company and I

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graduated from an Ivy League school with
a master's degree. Blah blah blah.

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They were paying me a lot of
money and aspects of our job were totally

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manual. In fact, when I
had to import compensation records from Latin America,

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the twenty five hundred employees we supported
in our division. I kid you

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not, I had to hit the
enter key twenty five hundred times, and

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I was shaking my head, going
this is insane. And there still are

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very manual processes that exist that aren't
terribly fulfilling, and in fact are dangerous.

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The pickers at Amazon notoriously burn out. Amazon's faced a number of hiring

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challenges over the years because in some
cases they've run out of employees, and

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it's a very physical job. I've
watched a PBS documentary that I think I

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quote in the new book about the
dangers of doing the same thing eight ten

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hours a day, you know,
being on your feet. You're basically a

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work athlete. And the day after
work you need to relax. So there's

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that, and it's not just abstract. I start off that chapter of the

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book with the example of in Fort
Worth, Texas, a robot McDonald's.

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There are no employees. It's you
order on a kiosk and you enter whatever

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you want and then all of a
sudden, a big Mac or a quarter

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pounder which cheese, comes out for
you. But it isn't just blue collar

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work. In fact, based on
my research, many of these generative AI

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type tools pose more of a threat
to white collar work. I mentioned before

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the Goldman sacks. I think it
was study about how they can automate twenty

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five percent of white collar tasks.
You know, when I think about basically

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writing the same email over and over
again, I don't do that because I

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have some automation tools on my computer. Why would I type the same thing

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six or seven times. I also
stitched together a number of different tools using

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some of these no code low code
applications because I despise efficiency. So I

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agree it is freeing in the sense
that AI can't do everything. We don't

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want it to do everything necessarily,
but we don't enjoy, for the most

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part, filling out the same form
over and over again. So if we

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can use AI and automation to make
work qualitatively better, that sounds like an

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exciting opportunity. But it's a threat
to folks who don't want to expand the

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horizon. Someone who's maybe fifty two
years old and is very comfortable doing the

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same thing over and over again.
That's not me. It's never been me.

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But I struggle to see a world
in which that job exists or certainly

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pays a living wage. So again, I've got more questions than answers in

386
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this book. I certainly don't have
all the answers. These are big trends.

387
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And getting back to your previous point
about finding meaning and work, I

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00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:32.359
agree with you. During the pandemic, particularly lockdown, we asked ourselves ourselves

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some big, hairy questions. What
is the purpose of the office? What

390
00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:40.599
is the purpose of work? No, not everyone's got a self actualizing or

391
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:44.400
self fulfilling or fulfilling type of job, but I think more of us want

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that for member employers. What do
you think? Yeah, you're absolutely right

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that what is that work about?
And that's where what happened was doing pandemic

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because there's so much uncertainty. I
mean, there's uncertainty in life every day.

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People don't realize that. We fall
into a routine then we okay,

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you know, I'm driving, I'm
waking up, I'm going for groceries,

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but we don't realize that what's going
to happen the next moment. And that's

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how the brain survives because brain wants
certainty. But in pandemic, there was

399
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so much uncertainty that people started asking
existential questions. People wanted to know what

400
00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:29.839
was there to life, like,
is there motor life besides having that golden

401
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:34.759
handcuffs or just doing the work,
doing the grunt work sometimes or even if

402
00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:37.759
it is strategy, like, you
know how much strategy and problem solving you

403
00:31:37.839 --> 00:31:44.400
can do. So what was life
about? And from that emerged? I

404
00:31:44.599 --> 00:31:48.319
think so higher awareness of what life
could be, how life could be more

405
00:31:48.440 --> 00:31:52.519
richer, and how you could bring
more meaning to life. So it's important.

406
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:59.319
That's circling back to where you mention
earlier, is that it's important that

407
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:06.480
organizations pay attention to it. And
you mentioned about Cisco reimagining the workplace,

408
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:12.000
so it circles back to where we
started. Yeah, I agree, there's

409
00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:16.640
I think enormous opportunity in this chaos. To paraphrase from one of my favorite

410
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:24.119
quotes, I think there is an
enormous opportunity for organizations to, as I

411
00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:29.240
write in the back of the book, steer into the skid and embrace these

412
00:32:29.319 --> 00:32:30.880
things. And no, it's not
going to be easy. You're going to

413
00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:36.839
make mistakes. But even in a
loose labor market, you could argue that

414
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:40.160
top talent it's got no shortage of
choices about where to work. Well,

415
00:32:40.279 --> 00:32:45.599
a the employee, the labor market
has been tight. I think the Department

416
00:32:45.640 --> 00:32:50.359
of Labor announced that last week it
was three point six percent, which is

417
00:32:50.519 --> 00:32:54.480
remarkable. So plenty of people have
got options about where they want to work.

418
00:32:54.559 --> 00:33:00.519
And then compounding that, we've got
this rapid adoption of remote and hybrid

419
00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:05.680
work. So historically you've been pretty
much confined to employers in your vicinity unless

420
00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:08.920
you wanted to move your family or
your company was going to pay relow.

421
00:33:09.640 --> 00:33:15.200
That's not necessarily the case now to
the extent that more employers have embraced hybrid

422
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:17.039
and mote work. And even if
you had to get on a plane once

423
00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:21.000
a month to go to the office, you still may come out ahead.

424
00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:25.680
So to me, it's just irresponsible
to ignore these forces. I just don't

425
00:33:25.720 --> 00:33:30.759
see how we're reverting to pre pandemic
work. And you can fight that,

426
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:36.000
but you can also say, well, there's this opportunity to provide a better

427
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:39.039
workplace, to be a better employer, to contribute more to society, to

428
00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:44.960
be a more humane company. But
that requires a shift in mindset, and

429
00:33:45.079 --> 00:33:50.960
I'd be naive to think that everyone's
going to do that absolutely, So I

430
00:33:51.079 --> 00:33:55.200
want to hit upon you have brought
up your previous book low code, no

431
00:33:55.400 --> 00:34:02.640
code, And from what I'm gauging
and what you're sharing is that, like

432
00:34:02.759 --> 00:34:09.000
you know, this is like I've
heard about so many software job openings in

433
00:34:09.159 --> 00:34:15.920
cybersecurity that we have a shortage of
tech workers. So there's a lot of

434
00:34:16.039 --> 00:34:23.719
tech issues that are going around.
How can organizations look at the situation and

435
00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:29.039
work through it? Yeah, it's
a simple question, but it begins with

436
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:32.760
accepting the fact that these tools are
valuable, and they're ubiquitous, they're affordable,

437
00:34:32.920 --> 00:34:38.039
you're user friendly, and to your
point, IT departments and software developers

438
00:34:38.119 --> 00:34:43.320
are strapped. In the book,
I cite a ton of research on just

439
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:47.840
this severe dearth of coders and there
are in an error of shadow it,

440
00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:51.960
which is a fancy way of saying
that people don't need to go to a

441
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:58.960
centralized IT department to procure resources.
People can use softwares a service, they

442
00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:05.039
can use open source software to basically
get things past the goalie, so to

443
00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:09.480
speak. You can fight this and
penalize employees who take advantage of this,

444
00:35:10.119 --> 00:35:15.400
or you can embrace it. And
to me, it's completely unreasonable to expect

445
00:35:15.559 --> 00:35:20.559
people, given as we're talking about
earlier the rate of change department head to

446
00:35:20.679 --> 00:35:24.239
have p and l responsibility to wait
a year for it to even look at

447
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:29.480
developing a new system. That's just
not reasonable. So if you look at

448
00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:34.559
Notion and air table and web flow
and Bubble and a lot of these tools,

449
00:35:35.559 --> 00:35:38.559
they are incredibly powerful. As I
said, they're user friendly, they're

450
00:35:38.559 --> 00:35:44.639
affordable, and they eliminate the IT
business divide. By that, I mean

451
00:35:45.079 --> 00:35:50.119
that historically when companies have developed software, they if you use the waterfall method,

452
00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:53.800
they've collected a list of requirements and
try to plan out the next year,

453
00:35:53.880 --> 00:36:00.320
eighteen months whatever. Addile methods like
Scrum release software a little bit at

454
00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:04.519
a time because they realize the folly
of trying to predict the future regardless of

455
00:36:04.599 --> 00:36:07.840
value. Implement software, though you
need to be a developer. That's not

456
00:36:07.960 --> 00:36:12.079
the case with the citizen developers that
I write about in the book. If

457
00:36:12.119 --> 00:36:14.880
you can work a mouse, That's
why the cover that book has got a

458
00:36:15.239 --> 00:36:20.360
cursor that's not an accident, and
it's got building blocks kind of like Tetris.

459
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:25.119
It's basically a metaphor for how you
can build pretty powerful applications without knowing

460
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:29.519
a lick of code. That doesn't
mean that Apple is going to run its

461
00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:32.360
entire supply chain on air table.
That's just not reasonable. But when I

462
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:36.719
think about people sending a bunch of
emails back and forth or using a Google

463
00:36:36.760 --> 00:36:40.760
spreadsheet and they still don't know the
status of a particular project or product launch

464
00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:45.320
or whatever, I just say to
them, you know, there is a

465
00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:47.360
better way of tracking things. Oh
I'm not a coder. That's okay,

466
00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:53.239
you don't have to be. No, that's fantastic. So let's say you

467
00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:58.119
know, in our audience, we
have a lot of entrepreneurs, and we

468
00:36:58.239 --> 00:37:01.679
have a lot of listeners who are
professionals. So you talked about that you

469
00:37:01.800 --> 00:37:07.880
don't need to know the coding.
I mean I did some long, long

470
00:37:07.960 --> 00:37:12.360
time back. So for people like
myself or like you know, who are

471
00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:16.480
entrepreneurs or an executive, coaches,
or for people who are professionals, can

472
00:37:16.599 --> 00:37:21.880
you share some practical applications where they
could just kind of take two or three

473
00:37:22.519 --> 00:37:28.320
apps like you have talked about and
simplify their lives and open up some hours

474
00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:35.760
because people are always looking for more
time. Yeah, there is no shortage

475
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:38.480
of tools, and I break them
down into it basically created a taxonomy for

476
00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:42.920
the book, which was more challenging
than I thought because these tools overlapped so

477
00:37:43.039 --> 00:37:46.360
much. Even a tool like Notion
is like an amiba. It constantly morphs.

478
00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:50.920
And I want to say, three
months ago they launched Generative AI inside

479
00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:54.039
of it. That was not on
my radar when I wrote that particular book.

480
00:37:54.079 --> 00:37:58.079
So again, things change very quickly, and it's tough for us to

481
00:37:58.159 --> 00:38:00.880
get our heads around a tool like
because it does so many things. Were

482
00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:04.800
so used to saying does this need
to be a word doc or a PowerPoint

483
00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:09.079
presentation or a spreadsheet or an access
database or something. Those distinctions with a

484
00:38:09.159 --> 00:38:15.000
tool like Notion or code or some
of the other ones like it basically fall

485
00:38:15.079 --> 00:38:19.639
apart. So to answer your question, there's one example in the book of

486
00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:22.559
a company that was building a mobile
app and they were doing it in a

487
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:27.880
very code centric way and it just
wasn't going very well. It was over

488
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:32.159
budget past the deadline. I've seen
this movie a thousand times before, and

489
00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:37.760
they used a tool called Bubble that
was very visual Dragon Drop. They wound

490
00:38:37.880 --> 00:38:43.760
up liking it so much that they
completely junked the previous incarnation of the app,

491
00:38:44.679 --> 00:38:46.840
or even as a small business.
There's a great example of a guy

492
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:51.159
who at the time was living in
Florida now he lives in Sweden, who

493
00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:54.440
worked at a family party planning business, and they had a number of different

494
00:38:54.480 --> 00:38:59.119
issues, one of which was that
with all these different drivers, they'd have

495
00:38:59.239 --> 00:39:02.639
to put on a voicemail I kid
you not. This was up until three

496
00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:07.280
or four years ago. Everyone scheduled, but the limit on a voicemail is

497
00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:12.320
ninety seconds, so people had to
call up and listen and forty seven seconds

498
00:39:12.360 --> 00:39:14.320
in okay, Phil, you need
to be here at eight o'clock and give

499
00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:16.920
you a need top at eight oh
five. And that is how they did

500
00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:21.360
it, and sometimes they'd have to
re record it a bunch of times because

501
00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:24.480
ninety seconds is a lot to put
in information for fifty drivers. And then

502
00:39:24.519 --> 00:39:30.159
there were drivers who spoke mostly Spanish, so they had a hard time understanding.

503
00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:37.239
So using air table, a whip
smart citizen developer with no coding experience

504
00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:43.440
built an app that would text all
the drivers the night before their message right,

505
00:39:43.639 --> 00:39:46.400
here's where you need to be.
Based on that, then they wound

506
00:39:46.480 --> 00:39:52.719
up also creating an app on the
phone and using the phone's camera to track

507
00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:58.039
when someone turned in a truck,
because sometimes the drivers would damage the trucks.

508
00:39:58.360 --> 00:40:01.480
But figuring out who did what when
was very difficult. So by scanning

509
00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:06.960
a QR code, again not requiring
any code so think mass not keyboard,

510
00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:15.280
they were able to effectively eliminate this
mystery of who banged the door here because

511
00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:19.119
the drivers when they came in would
take a picture of it and say,

512
00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:22.719
yes, I checked this truck in
at eight oh seven pm in Miami on

513
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:27.400
Thursday. You don't see any damage, so it wasn't me. And then

514
00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:30.800
they could identify the drivers who were
maybe not that responsible. So there are

515
00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:35.079
all sorts of examples in that book. I'm a big fan of case studies.

516
00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:37.559
I do my research and I cite
my statistics like a good author.

517
00:40:38.039 --> 00:40:43.480
But I also know that people like
Malcolm Gladwell are very successful in part because

518
00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:45.880
they can tell a good story.
I don't think I'm nearly as good of

519
00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:49.199
a writer as he is, but
I think that when it comes to technology,

520
00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:54.480
you can spew specs at people all
day long about compute power or RAM

521
00:40:54.679 --> 00:40:59.199
or whatever that's not really going to
move the needle. But when they hear

522
00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:00.440
a story like that, they might
say, oh, well, we're really

523
00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:05.199
not in the party planning business,
but we do have a number of manual

524
00:41:05.320 --> 00:41:09.880
processes that are quite frankly error late
in inefficient, expensive, or what if

525
00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:14.639
we can automate all that? So
automation is just one of the many benefits

526
00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:17.719
of low no code tools. But
there are lots of examples in that book

527
00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:24.880
as well well. Fantastic Thank you
for sharing, and I can definitely second

528
00:41:24.920 --> 00:41:30.760
what you're sharing is that because so
many pieces of my business, it's you

529
00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:32.480
get the tools, and of course
you've got to see you know, what

530
00:41:32.559 --> 00:41:37.519
are your requirements and then seeing what
fits your need the best. So,

531
00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:40.159
for example, if you want to
build a website, there are a lot

532
00:41:40.280 --> 00:41:44.599
of tools out there, So for
example, I would have lead pages,

533
00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:50.079
and that lead pages is connected with
an automation with active campaign, and folks,

534
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:52.320
I do not have any affiliate links
here, so I'm just sharing what

535
00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:57.320
I have done. And then that
active campaign is again connected with Cannon Leave,

536
00:41:57.320 --> 00:42:02.639
which is a scheduling link. So
right than working in business, you

537
00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:07.280
can work on business. And of
course, from what it sounds like,

538
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:14.360
we will definitely have to get both
the books from Phil. So, Phil,

539
00:42:14.400 --> 00:42:17.000
if you can share again the titles
of both of your books and where

540
00:42:17.079 --> 00:42:21.760
can we find out? Yeah,
well you can find out all of my

541
00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:27.039
books on Phil Simon dot Com.
But the most recent two are the Nine

542
00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:32.679
The Tectonic Forces, Reshaping the Workplace
and Low Code, no Code Citizen Developers

543
00:42:32.719 --> 00:42:37.480
and the Surprising Future of business Applications. I like to think that they don't

544
00:42:37.519 --> 00:42:45.280
suck. Fantastic. It's been a
pleasure speaking with you. Is there anything

545
00:42:45.360 --> 00:42:52.400
that you'd like to share before we
bring our conversation to a close. I

546
00:42:52.519 --> 00:42:54.599
just want to thank you for having
on Diva enjoyed it. Oh, it

547
00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:59.559
was a pleasure having you. Thank
you for joining us and giving us the

548
00:42:59.639 --> 00:43:05.440
nugget of your wisdom and research.
And thank you for that. And thank

549
00:43:05.480 --> 00:43:08.880
you listeners for joining us because without
you, the show would not be possible.

550
00:43:09.639 --> 00:43:14.960
Thank you one for making the show
technically possible. So be well until

551
00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:19.239
next time and I'll see you next
Tuesday. Take care. Thank you for

552
00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:22.920
being part of Beyond Confidence with your
host, Diva Park, we hope you

553
00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:25.480
have learned more about how to start
living the life you want. Each week

554
00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:30.119
on Beyond Confidence, you hear stories
of real people who've experienced growth by overcoming

555
00:43:30.159 --> 00:43:36.480
their fears and building meaningful relationships.
During Beyond Confidence, Diva Park shares what

556
00:43:36.639 --> 00:43:39.079
happened to her when she stepped out
of her comfort zone to work directly with

557
00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:44.519
people across the globe. She not
only coaches people how to form hard connections,

558
00:43:44.719 --> 00:43:49.719
but also transform relationships to mutually beneficial
partnerships as they strive to live the

559
00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:52.079
life they want. If you are
ready to live the life you want and

560
00:43:52.280 --> 00:43:58.760
leverage your strengths, learn more at
www dot dvapark dot com and you can

561
00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:02.760
connect with Diva a contact at divyapark
dot com. We look forward to you

562
00:44:02.920 --> 00:44:04.880
joining us next week.