June 30, 2026

How to Build High-Performing Teams: Leadership Lessons from a Symphony Orchestra

Show Notes
Transcript

Discover how great leaders build high-performing teams under pressure with leadership consultant, business psychologist, and acclaimed musician Charles Grimes. Drawing on lessons from world-class symphony orchestras, he shares practical insights on trust, collaboration, shared purpose, resilience, neurodiversity, and leadership without micromanagement. A must-watch for leaders, managers, entrepreneurs, and anyone building exceptional teams.

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and now here's your host, div Park.

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Good morning listeners, and it's a beautiful day today, Sunny Shanning,

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it's Tuesday. I'm here with you. So music, music is

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something that's a universal language that transcends boundaries, borders and humans.

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And what has music got to do with leadership? That's

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what peopill be exploring today. And also I want to

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thank each and every one of you who have got

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a books. Especially in today's world, there is so much

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noise if you're looking to become an influencer. And now

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those days are gone where AI was just question mark.

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It's here to stay and AI is already stepping into

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our daily life. So how can you get ahead of it?

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How can you develop skills and how can you not

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lose the existing skills if you're looking for it? And

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invite you to check out our books and also know

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that partial proceeds from our bookscode to Kiwa dot org

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because it's important to help each other out. Well, let's

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bring in our guest. Welcome Charles.

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Hello, Diviya, good to see you really looking forward to

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this conversation, looking.

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Forward to it as well. So Charles tell us, do

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you recall a moment or a person in your life

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that'll have to pass to Mark on you? Oh?

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Gosh, so many. I have had a succession of heroes

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in my life. There might be reasons why we might

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explore those why I've had them, But yes, ever since

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I was little, Uh it could be so I played

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the guitar, the classic guitar, so all those years ago.

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A big influence when I was in my teens was

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a guitarist called John Williams, who I still believe is

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absolutely at the peak of the guitar world. I mean

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he's he's now in his eighties, so he's okay, not

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maybe not currently, but he's a giant in the work

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in the world of music. But I suppose. And then

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there have been all philosophers that have been scientists. Because

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I'm very interested in physics, so I could talk about

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Richard Feynman, the physicist. But I think when I think

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of really important people, I mean these are not people

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I have met. Obviously, I think of the great composers,

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because I have those people in my mind all the time.

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So I always have music in my head. I used

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to think everyone must, but I don't think they do.

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But I do. I have music going round in my head,

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as you know as we speak. And the great composers BArch, Bethoven, Mozart,

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et cetera, are absolute giants of twentieth of Western civilization.

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And to have and if I had to pick one

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of them, it would be Bach, John Sebastian Bach, and

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so to have somebody like that, if you like looking

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over your shoulder all the time, I mean it's these

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These are such giants that it stops you getting above yourself.

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I think when you realiz as what real, unimaginable genius is,

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and you said it could be Bethoven, it could be Mozart.

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In the world of art, I mean, it's not just music,

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but it's music for me. In the world of art,

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it could be Rembrandt. In the world of literature, it

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could be whole host, it could be Soldier Nits, and

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it could be all sorts of people. So, but these

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are truly impressive people. So but for me it would

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be Bach.

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I think, yeah, And what impression did it leave on you?

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Well? I think, okay, Bach covers as music does every

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possible emotion.

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It's it.

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It conveys all the things that words can't. It really

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starts where music where words stop. If you like, that's

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that or they certainly do for me, and I think

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of all all the emotions. I mean there's you can

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think of the tragedy, and but for me, they I

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think Bach does joy better than anyone else. Beethoven is

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being joyous. There aren't many works of his that I

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when I think of joy, but there are so many

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and that's fine. I mean he does lots of other things.

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Baked Open is wonderful, but Bach does do joy. And

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I think joy is pretty important. Actually, I think it's it.

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Is It is because if you think about it, all

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of us, whether we're aiming to go on vacation or

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you know, kids are studying, getting that education, getting a

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better life, what does that bring us? It brings us

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joy at the end of the day, spending time with family,

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spending holidays. So definitely, joy is a very very important emotion.

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Yeah, I do like it.

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Although I got to say that I am partial to

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Mozart and Beethoven.

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That's okay, that's yes, We're not going to fall out

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on that one. Yeah, I mean, you asked about you

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know people who have had a big influence. Okay, so

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there's a musician, so Daniel Barrenboim, who is now in

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his eighties, so almost retired, but he has been an

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absolute giant in the world of music.

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And that's the beauty of conversations. Now you mentioned about

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Bach and Joy, I'm going to look at his music,

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listen to it, and experience it in a completely different way.

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And that's the beauty that we bring out as we

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go and talk about different things. Sure, yes, yes, So

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tell us how did you get into music and how

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did music become your life.

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Well, I was a chorister's little boy, just by chance.

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I went to a school. So I wasn't a chorister

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in a cathedral, but I was a chorus at school.

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We had a chapel. I went to a Posh school

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and so we had a chapel, and therefore I did

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from a young age. I did services every day, even

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on Saturdays and Sundays. So I just grew up in

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that tradition. And for me it wasn't the It wasn't.

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Of course, it's religious, but that wasn't what did it

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for me at all. I mean, yes, I've heard lots

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of sermons, I've heard lots of Bible readings, but it

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wasn't the words that got me, but the music absolutely did.

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So I had a very good grounding in that in

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that you learn how to sit, read and you learn

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how to perform at a very high level. And I

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was also lucky that I lived near Liverpool, and when

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I was twelve and thirteen the two big concerts that

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the Liverpool Philharmonic gave which required as well as an

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orchestra and a choir, it required a children's choir, and

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so one of them, when I was thirteen, there was

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a new cathedral opened in Liverpool. Now cathedrals aren't built

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and open very often, and they put this big piece

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on by Ballio's a setting of his today and it

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was so it needs huge forces and so we were

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involved in that. It was also televised, so for me

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as a thirteen year old, I think I was more

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interested in watching all these TV cameras sort of whirring

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around the cathedral. But what that really introduced me to

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was working at a professional level. I wasn't being paid

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for it, so I'm not professional in the strict sense,

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but I was. I at a very early age twelve

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and thirteen to know what a professional standard is when

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you're working with a professional orchestra and a professional conductor.

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And once you've learned that, you never go back. So

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you I mean simple things like you go to a

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rehearsal and you don't talk, you don't chatter, And it's

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surprising when you go to an amateur choir. Part of

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it is social, so they like to have a bit

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of a natter, you know while the other people are singing. Well,

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you just don't do that, and I never do and

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that can be, of course frustrating because or it can

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also make me seem anti social. But no, I just

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like to go for the high standards. So that I

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was very fortunate in that, and then I've just sung

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in choirs ever since, and again at a high standard.

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I sang with the Academy of Saint Martin and the

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Fields for twenty years and we went all over the

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world and all over Europe. So I've been extremely fortunate

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to experience this.

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And what leadership lessons have you brought back from those journeys?

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Gosh, well, there are so many things that I think

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we can learn from the and it's not just leaders

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as well. I mean you didn't say that, but if

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you did say we and that's an important thing. It's

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not just leaders because when we think of leaders we

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tend to think of people in the military or the

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big business or politics. Well, yeah, they could learn, but

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it's all of us that can learn from the world

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of music because we're all we all are leaders in

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a way, we all have access to leadership. And that's

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one of the things I always like to get across

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that leaders and leadership are different, different concepts, and we

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all whether it's in our work but also in our communities.

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We can show leadership. In our families. We can show leadership.

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You know, as parents, what sort of leadership do we

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show to our children? As a partner, what do I

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What leadership do I show to my to my partner

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or my spouse, and vice versa. So this is terribly important.

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So some of the lessons, I suppose the most obvious

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one is listening. I mean, that's what musicians do. That

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is the thing that separates them from from other people.

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That's what that's the skill that they've really developed, just

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like artists have developed a way of seeing. I remember,

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my mother was an art teacher. And I remember her

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when I was little. She was painting something and she

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some flowers and just she said, she pointed to some

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leaves in this still life that, you know, a bunch

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of flowers that she had said, what colors that? Well,

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obviously they were leaves, so I said, well, they're green,

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and then she pointed out, well, they're almost every color

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but green. You know, there are purples, there are oranges,

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there are yellows, there are reds in that if you

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really learn to see. And that's what artists can do.

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Like now. Likewise, musicians what they can do is here

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and listen, not just here, but really listen. And that's

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listening to you know, if I'm singing in the cathedral,

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of course I'm listening to the people on either side,

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So you know, am I blending with them? Because we

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have to blend together? But also I'm listening to myself.

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You know, am I really doing what I think I'm doing?

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I mean, I think I'm singing in tune. I think

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that note is in tune, but is it really? Is

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it a bit flat? Is it a bit sharp? I

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think it was on time, but was it I a

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bit late? A bit early? So you're always ruthlessly listening

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to yourself and looking at yourself. And that's a thing

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which we all have to do. I mean, we have

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to do it in work. Is you know, really check

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am I am?

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I really?

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What is going on here? But likewise we should do

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it with our family. You know, how about if we

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if we sat around the kitchen table and said, this

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is what I think's going on. This is how I

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think I've behaved. But hey, kids, what do you think

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you know? Tell me be honest. Now of course I

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can then go back to them, of course and say, well,

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this is how you think you behaved, this is how

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I see it. But it's a Then we create a dialogue,

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and that's hugely important, I think. Yeah, so that's just

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one lesson from the world of music.

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You're opening the doors for conversation, and when conversation and

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dialogues happen, that's when the barriers break and you start

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pulling trust, which is the foundation of any relationship. And

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if you're talking about orchestra, I mean, I don't have

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a musical note in my body. I can listen and

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I can experience it. But that said, like you said,

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everyone doing their piece at the right time, in the

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right order, and just that right amount for everyone to

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come together and sound beautiful. So so many times what.

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Happening, And I'll I'll just correct you there, if you

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if I may, and that you said, you know, a

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few minutes ago you were talking about your love of

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Beethoven and Mozart, and then you've just said, I'm not

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I don't know a musical bone in your body, by

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which I'm presuming you say you're meaning you don't play

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the piano or you don't play an instruments or no,

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that's one part of being a musician is being able

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to play. But if we just play to nobody, that's

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no good at all. You know, we need it's it's

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it's a it's a coming together of performers and listeners.

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You need the two together, just like you know on

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a you can't have one without the other. Really, just

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like you know, if you think of a magnet, you know,

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a simple bar magnet, and you have a north pole

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and a south pole, you can't have one without the other.

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We if we perform, we need listeners. And just because

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you don't play an instrument doesn't matter. You are musical.

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So let's just.

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I appreciate that. Yeah, And since we're talking about leaders,

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leaders are like conductors, And if you're a conductor, you

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want to bring in that whole team. You want to

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have them in harmony. You want to have a cohesive team.

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But so many times what happens is that, especially when

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individual contributors are promoted to become leaders, then they have

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not been trained to be leaders, and then they bring

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in micromanagement. So how can leaders tend to stay away

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from it and yet create that harmony in the team.

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I think it comes down to how we listen and

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how conductors listen. So they because micromanagement does have a place.

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If you overplay it, of course, if that's all you do,

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that's no good because you just it's just stultifying. We

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go nowhere. But it is important. And I'll so one

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of the things that conductors have to do is they listen.

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And I'll say this, I'll explain this. They listen both vertically,

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vertically and horizontally. I'll explain what I mean. So they

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listen horizontally. Now, let's imagine you're playing a you're conducting

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a Beethoven symphony, last forty five minutes. Now, in any

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big peek in any piece of music, there is a climax,

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the point that you're really moving towards. It's the absolute

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center of the whole work. It might be very often

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it's in the slow movement, in the third movement, where's

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that's the emotional peak of the whole piece. There are

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other peaks, of course, but that is the one, and

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you have to have that in mind when you start off.

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You start, you know, as you give your downbeat, you've

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got that moment half an hour away, thirty five minutes

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away that you're aiming towards. That Everything is judged in

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relation to that, because you don't want to be too

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loud too early, because otherwise that won't have the impact.

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It's a bit like going on a walk, you know,

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says say you're going to walk in the countryside, and

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you're it's going to be up and down and up

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and down, but you can see in the distance there

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is that's the that's the highest hill that we're going

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to have to go over. So it's a bit like that.

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You're judging everything by that, So you have to do that.

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You have to think horizontally as a conductor, so you

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know where you're going, but at the same time. You

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can't just do that. You have to think vertically, I

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this moment, this chord that the orchestra is playing, is

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it completely in tune, because it might not be because

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they actually, the people in front, they're so busy playing

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that they it's not always easy to hear. In fact,

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very often it's not possible to hear you know, if

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you're if the horns, if the French horns are playing

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flat out, they cannot hear the cellos and vice versa.

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So you've the only person that can is the conductor.

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Because the conductor standing in front has got this helicopter

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view if you can hear everything in more of a balance,

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So you have to you're thinking vertically as they're playing

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that is it exactly together? Is it in tune? Is

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it balanced? Because maybe I need a bit more cello here,

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Maybe the horns are a bit loud. They're in tune,

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but they're a bit loud, so I need constantly you're

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shuffling it around. Now, if you just do that, we

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go nowhere. But you have to do both. So that

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and that's really micro management of just saying yeah, you're

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pointing to them, they need to be brought up they

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need to be quiet and down. Now. It's just the

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same of course in the workplace. You know, if you're

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the CEO, you have to be thinking, Okay, what's going

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to happen in you know, Q three, Q four, next

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year to twenty twenty seven, and how are we moving forward?

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What's the twelve month plan? What are the milestones en route?

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But if we just do that, then the whole thing

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can can fall apart. So you have to also while

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you're doing that, think okay, this week, what's going on here?

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And you have to hear from the different divisions and

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are we really doing what we think we do so

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and that comes very much down to micro management. So

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you have to balance the two, I think, and you

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can't have one without the other again like the like the.

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Magnet, Yeah definitely, And what I'm hearing is that you

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want to you talked about like hearing cello and different

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music instruments. So similarly, whether you're leader, and like you mentioned,

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can anybody can be a leader? It's not just about

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the title. It is about listening to people who maybe

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they could be your peers or they could be your

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reports and what is that every person thinking where they're

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at and are you in tune with them because that listening,

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that deep listening, is what's going to let you know

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where to manage those expectations where you are enabling and

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empowering your team members to grow to have that agency

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for themselves. Because if you think about it, in orchestra,

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you're bringing in the right people and also you're training them.

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There are so many practices. Just like sports, there is

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that repetition, So how are you bringing together that people

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are playing in harmony? So this definitely applies to leadership. Now,

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I'm curious what are some of your experiences as you

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worked with Google, British Airways, McDonald's, companies like that. What

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are some of the experiences that you took forward in

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your life.

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With McDonald's. I was lucky to run some courses over

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in Chicago. That's where their headquarters is, on the South

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side of Chicago, and they have a huge campus there,

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including one of their main training facilities, which is known

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as the Hamburger University. And it's so easy or I've

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I should back up there. I was yeah a bit thinking, well, McDonald's,

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you know, it's about Hamburgers. Really, is this going to

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be a great place? And I will. I mean I've

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been doing this which type of work now for a

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long time, coming up to thirty years. And the people

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a McDonald's were the proudest people that I've ever come

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across ever. They were so proud of where they worked justifiably.

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I mean, it's a hell of an organization. You know,

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whatever we think, it's an amazing organization. I mean it's

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a it's a glorious campus for a start, and it's

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there are lakes and fountains and all of that. It's

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but they they purposely wanted I was there for four

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days and they wanted to take me round. They took

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me around to give me a tour to see how

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this this place works, and and it's hugely impressive. And

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as we often say about McDonald's, you know, when you

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when you go into into McDonald's, whether it's in you know,

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San Francisco or Shrewsbury which is where I live, it

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over here, or or anywhere else, uh huh, to have

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that level of consistency, which is which is terribly important

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to any organization. I mean it's important with a symphony orchestra,

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you know, when you go to them, you don't want

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to you don't want to find out that, oh, tonight

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they're having an off night. No, no, I've I've paid

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one hundred dollars for this. I don't want you to

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have an off night. I want it to be outstanding,

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and they do now. Likewise that when you go into

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McDonald's you know what you're going to get exactly. It

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never fails. And that and also when you think the

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people that are there, many of them are in their

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second language. These are not well educated people. Very often,

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very often they're teenagers. As somebody once said, these are

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kids that at home you find it hard to get

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them to clean their bedroom, to make their bed. And

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yet McDonald's can take these young people and make them

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into a team, a high performing team, and you think, wow,

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that is you've you've got some systems in place here.

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This is very impressive in a way that I never

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imagined it would be. So that's that's the most obvious one.

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How to Build High-Performing Teams: Leadership Lessons from a Symphony Orchestra

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