June 30, 2026

How to Build High-Performing Teams: Leadership Lessons from a Symphony Orchestra

How to Build High-Performing Teams: Leadership Lessons from a Symphony Orchestra
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Discover how great leaders build high-performing teams under pressure with leadership consultant, business psychologist, and acclaimed musician Charles Grimes. Drawing on lessons from world-class symphony orchestras, he shares practical insights on trust, collaboration, shared purpose, resilience, neurodiversity, and leadership without micromanagement. A must-watch for leaders, managers, entrepreneurs, and anyone building exceptional teams.

Beyond Confidence is broadcast live Tuesdays at 10AM ET on W4WN Radio - Women 4 Women Network (www.w4wn.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Beyond Confidence TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

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Four WN Radio. This is Beyond Confidence with your host

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w park. Do you want to live a more fulfilling life?

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and now here's your host, div Park.

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Good morning listeners, and it's a beautiful day today, Sunny Shanning,

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it's Tuesday. I'm here with you. So music, music is

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something that's a universal language that transcends boundaries, borders and humans.

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And what has music got to do with leadership? That's

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what peopill be exploring today. And also I want to

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thank each and every one of you who have got

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a books. Especially in today's world, there is so much

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noise if you're looking to become an influencer. And now

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those days are gone where AI was just question mark.

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It's here to stay and AI is already stepping into

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our daily life. So how can you get ahead of it?

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How can you develop skills and how can you not

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lose the existing skills if you're looking for it? And

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invite you to check out our books and also know

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that partial proceeds from our bookscode to Kiwa dot org

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because it's important to help each other out. Well, let's

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bring in our guest. Welcome Charles.

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Hello, Diviya, good to see you really looking forward to

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this conversation, looking.

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Forward to it as well. So Charles tell us, do

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you recall a moment or a person in your life

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that'll have to pass to Mark on you? Oh?

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Gosh, so many. I have had a succession of heroes

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in my life. There might be reasons why we might

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explore those why I've had them, But yes, ever since

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I was little, Uh it could be so I played

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the guitar, the classic guitar, so all those years ago.

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A big influence when I was in my teens was

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a guitarist called John Williams, who I still believe is

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absolutely at the peak of the guitar world. I mean

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he's he's now in his eighties, so he's okay, not

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maybe not currently, but he's a giant in the work

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in the world of music. But I suppose. And then

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there have been all philosophers that have been scientists. Because

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I'm very interested in physics, so I could talk about

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Richard Feynman, the physicist. But I think when I think

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of really important people, I mean these are not people

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I have met. Obviously, I think of the great composers,

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because I have those people in my mind all the time.

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So I always have music in my head. I used

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to think everyone must, but I don't think they do.

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But I do. I have music going round in my head,

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as you know as we speak. And the great composers BArch, Bethoven, Mozart,

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et cetera, are absolute giants of twentieth of Western civilization.

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And to have and if I had to pick one

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of them, it would be Bach, John Sebastian Bach, and

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so to have somebody like that, if you like looking

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over your shoulder all the time, I mean it's these

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These are such giants that it stops you getting above yourself.

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I think when you realiz as what real, unimaginable genius is,

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and you said it could be Bethoven, it could be Mozart.

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In the world of art, I mean, it's not just music,

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but it's music for me. In the world of art,

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it could be Rembrandt. In the world of literature, it

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could be whole host, it could be Soldier Nits, and

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it could be all sorts of people. So, but these

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are truly impressive people. So but for me it would

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be Bach.

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I think, yeah, And what impression did it leave on you?

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Well? I think, okay, Bach covers as music does every

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possible emotion.

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It's it.

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It conveys all the things that words can't. It really

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starts where music where words stop. If you like, that's

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that or they certainly do for me, and I think

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of all all the emotions. I mean there's you can

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think of the tragedy, and but for me, they I

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think Bach does joy better than anyone else. Beethoven is

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being joyous. There aren't many works of his that I

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when I think of joy, but there are so many

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and that's fine. I mean he does lots of other things.

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Baked Open is wonderful, but Bach does do joy. And

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I think joy is pretty important. Actually, I think it's it.

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Is It is because if you think about it, all

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of us, whether we're aiming to go on vacation or

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you know, kids are studying, getting that education, getting a

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better life, what does that bring us? It brings us

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joy at the end of the day, spending time with family,

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spending holidays. So definitely, joy is a very very important emotion.

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Yeah, I do like it.

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Although I got to say that I am partial to

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Mozart and Beethoven.

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That's okay, that's yes, We're not going to fall out

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on that one. Yeah, I mean, you asked about you

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know people who have had a big influence. Okay, so

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there's a musician, so Daniel Barrenboim, who is now in

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his eighties, so almost retired, but he has been an

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absolute giant in the world of music.

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And that's the beauty of conversations. Now you mentioned about

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Bach and Joy, I'm going to look at his music,

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listen to it, and experience it in a completely different way.

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And that's the beauty that we bring out as we

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go and talk about different things. Sure, yes, yes, So

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tell us how did you get into music and how

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did music become your life.

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Well, I was a chorister's little boy, just by chance.

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I went to a school. So I wasn't a chorister

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in a cathedral, but I was a chorus at school.

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We had a chapel. I went to a Posh school

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and so we had a chapel, and therefore I did

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from a young age. I did services every day, even

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on Saturdays and Sundays. So I just grew up in

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that tradition. And for me it wasn't the It wasn't.

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Of course, it's religious, but that wasn't what did it

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for me at all. I mean, yes, I've heard lots

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of sermons, I've heard lots of Bible readings, but it

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wasn't the words that got me, but the music absolutely did.

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So I had a very good grounding in that in

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that you learn how to sit, read and you learn

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how to perform at a very high level. And I

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was also lucky that I lived near Liverpool, and when

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I was twelve and thirteen the two big concerts that

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the Liverpool Philharmonic gave which required as well as an

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orchestra and a choir, it required a children's choir, and

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so one of them, when I was thirteen, there was

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a new cathedral opened in Liverpool. Now cathedrals aren't built

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and open very often, and they put this big piece

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on by Ballio's a setting of his today and it

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was so it needs huge forces and so we were

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involved in that. It was also televised, so for me

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as a thirteen year old, I think I was more

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interested in watching all these TV cameras sort of whirring

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around the cathedral. But what that really introduced me to

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was working at a professional level. I wasn't being paid

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for it, so I'm not professional in the strict sense,

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but I was. I at a very early age twelve

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and thirteen to know what a professional standard is when

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you're working with a professional orchestra and a professional conductor.

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And once you've learned that, you never go back. So

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you I mean simple things like you go to a

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rehearsal and you don't talk, you don't chatter, And it's

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surprising when you go to an amateur choir. Part of

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it is social, so they like to have a bit

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of a natter, you know while the other people are singing. Well,

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you just don't do that, and I never do and

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that can be, of course frustrating because or it can

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also make me seem anti social. But no, I just

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like to go for the high standards. So that I

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was very fortunate in that, and then I've just sung

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in choirs ever since, and again at a high standard.

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I sang with the Academy of Saint Martin and the

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Fields for twenty years and we went all over the

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world and all over Europe. So I've been extremely fortunate

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to experience this.

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And what leadership lessons have you brought back from those journeys?

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Gosh, well, there are so many things that I think

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we can learn from the and it's not just leaders

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as well. I mean you didn't say that, but if

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you did say we and that's an important thing. It's

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not just leaders because when we think of leaders we

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tend to think of people in the military or the

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big business or politics. Well, yeah, they could learn, but

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it's all of us that can learn from the world

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of music because we're all we all are leaders in

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a way, we all have access to leadership. And that's

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one of the things I always like to get across

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that leaders and leadership are different, different concepts, and we

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all whether it's in our work but also in our communities.

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We can show leadership. In our families. We can show leadership.

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You know, as parents, what sort of leadership do we

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show to our children? As a partner, what do I

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What leadership do I show to my to my partner

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or my spouse, and vice versa. So this is terribly important.

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So some of the lessons, I suppose the most obvious

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one is listening. I mean, that's what musicians do. That

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is the thing that separates them from from other people.

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That's what that's the skill that they've really developed, just

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like artists have developed a way of seeing. I remember,

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my mother was an art teacher. And I remember her

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when I was little. She was painting something and she

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some flowers and just she said, she pointed to some

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leaves in this still life that, you know, a bunch

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of flowers that she had said, what colors that? Well,

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obviously they were leaves, so I said, well, they're green,

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and then she pointed out, well, they're almost every color

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but green. You know, there are purples, there are oranges,

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there are yellows, there are reds in that if you

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really learn to see. And that's what artists can do.

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Like now. Likewise, musicians what they can do is here

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and listen, not just here, but really listen. And that's

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listening to you know, if I'm singing in the cathedral,

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of course I'm listening to the people on either side,

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So you know, am I blending with them? Because we

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have to blend together? But also I'm listening to myself.

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You know, am I really doing what I think I'm doing?

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I mean, I think I'm singing in tune. I think

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that note is in tune, but is it really? Is

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it a bit flat? Is it a bit sharp? I

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think it was on time, but was it I a

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bit late? A bit early? So you're always ruthlessly listening

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to yourself and looking at yourself. And that's a thing

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which we all have to do. I mean, we have

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to do it in work. Is you know, really check

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am I am?

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I really?

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What is going on here? But likewise we should do

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it with our family. You know, how about if we

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if we sat around the kitchen table and said, this

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is what I think's going on. This is how I

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think I've behaved. But hey, kids, what do you think

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you know? Tell me be honest. Now of course I

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can then go back to them, of course and say, well,

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this is how you think you behaved, this is how

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I see it. But it's a Then we create a dialogue,

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and that's hugely important, I think. Yeah, so that's just

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one lesson from the world of music.

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You're opening the doors for conversation, and when conversation and

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dialogues happen, that's when the barriers break and you start

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pulling trust, which is the foundation of any relationship. And

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if you're talking about orchestra, I mean, I don't have

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a musical note in my body. I can listen and

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I can experience it. But that said, like you said,

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everyone doing their piece at the right time, in the

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right order, and just that right amount for everyone to

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come together and sound beautiful. So so many times what.

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Happening, And I'll I'll just correct you there, if you

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if I may, and that you said, you know, a

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few minutes ago you were talking about your love of

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Beethoven and Mozart, and then you've just said, I'm not

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I don't know a musical bone in your body, by

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which I'm presuming you say you're meaning you don't play

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the piano or you don't play an instruments or no,

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that's one part of being a musician is being able

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to play. But if we just play to nobody, that's

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no good at all. You know, we need it's it's

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it's a it's a coming together of performers and listeners.

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You need the two together, just like you know on

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a you can't have one without the other. Really, just

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like you know, if you think of a magnet, you know,

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a simple bar magnet, and you have a north pole

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and a south pole, you can't have one without the other.

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We if we perform, we need listeners. And just because

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you don't play an instrument doesn't matter. You are musical.

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So let's just.

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I appreciate that. Yeah, And since we're talking about leaders,

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leaders are like conductors, And if you're a conductor, you

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want to bring in that whole team. You want to

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have them in harmony. You want to have a cohesive team.

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But so many times what happens is that, especially when

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individual contributors are promoted to become leaders, then they have

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not been trained to be leaders, and then they bring

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in micromanagement. So how can leaders tend to stay away

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from it and yet create that harmony in the team.

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I think it comes down to how we listen and

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how conductors listen. So they because micromanagement does have a place.

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If you overplay it, of course, if that's all you do,

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that's no good because you just it's just stultifying. We

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go nowhere. But it is important. And I'll so one

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of the things that conductors have to do is they listen.

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And I'll say this, I'll explain this. They listen both vertically,

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vertically and horizontally. I'll explain what I mean. So they

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listen horizontally. Now, let's imagine you're playing a you're conducting

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a Beethoven symphony, last forty five minutes. Now, in any

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big peek in any piece of music, there is a climax,

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the point that you're really moving towards. It's the absolute

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center of the whole work. It might be very often

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it's in the slow movement, in the third movement, where's

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that's the emotional peak of the whole piece. There are

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other peaks, of course, but that is the one, and

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you have to have that in mind when you start off.

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You start, you know, as you give your downbeat, you've

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got that moment half an hour away, thirty five minutes

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away that you're aiming towards. That Everything is judged in

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relation to that, because you don't want to be too

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loud too early, because otherwise that won't have the impact.

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It's a bit like going on a walk, you know,

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says say you're going to walk in the countryside, and

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you're it's going to be up and down and up

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and down, but you can see in the distance there

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is that's the that's the highest hill that we're going

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to have to go over. So it's a bit like that.

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You're judging everything by that, So you have to do that.

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You have to think horizontally as a conductor, so you

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know where you're going, but at the same time. You

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can't just do that. You have to think vertically, I

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this moment, this chord that the orchestra is playing, is

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it completely in tune, because it might not be because

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they actually, the people in front, they're so busy playing

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that they it's not always easy to hear. In fact,

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very often it's not possible to hear you know, if

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you're if the horns, if the French horns are playing

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flat out, they cannot hear the cellos and vice versa.

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So you've the only person that can is the conductor.

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Because the conductor standing in front has got this helicopter

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view if you can hear everything in more of a balance,

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So you have to you're thinking vertically as they're playing

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that is it exactly together? Is it in tune? Is

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it balanced? Because maybe I need a bit more cello here,

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Maybe the horns are a bit loud. They're in tune,

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but they're a bit loud, so I need constantly you're

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shuffling it around. Now, if you just do that, we

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go nowhere. But you have to do both. So that

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and that's really micro management of just saying yeah, you're

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pointing to them, they need to be brought up they

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need to be quiet and down. Now. It's just the

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same of course in the workplace. You know, if you're

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the CEO, you have to be thinking, Okay, what's going

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to happen in you know, Q three, Q four, next

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year to twenty twenty seven, and how are we moving forward?

323
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What's the twelve month plan? What are the milestones en route?

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But if we just do that, then the whole thing

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can can fall apart. So you have to also while

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you're doing that, think okay, this week, what's going on here?

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And you have to hear from the different divisions and

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are we really doing what we think we do so

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and that comes very much down to micro management. So

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you have to balance the two, I think, and you

331
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can't have one without the other again like the like the.

332
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Magnet, Yeah definitely, And what I'm hearing is that you

333
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want to you talked about like hearing cello and different

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music instruments. So similarly, whether you're leader, and like you mentioned,

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can anybody can be a leader? It's not just about

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the title. It is about listening to people who maybe

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they could be your peers or they could be your

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reports and what is that every person thinking where they're

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at and are you in tune with them because that listening,

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that deep listening, is what's going to let you know

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where to manage those expectations where you are enabling and

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empowering your team members to grow to have that agency

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for themselves. Because if you think about it, in orchestra,

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you're bringing in the right people and also you're training them.

345
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There are so many practices. Just like sports, there is

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that repetition, So how are you bringing together that people

347
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are playing in harmony? So this definitely applies to leadership. Now,

348
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I'm curious what are some of your experiences as you

349
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worked with Google, British Airways, McDonald's, companies like that. What

350
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are some of the experiences that you took forward in

351
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your life.

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With McDonald's. I was lucky to run some courses over

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in Chicago. That's where their headquarters is, on the South

354
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side of Chicago, and they have a huge campus there,

355
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including one of their main training facilities, which is known

356
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as the Hamburger University. And it's so easy or I've

357
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I should back up there. I was yeah a bit thinking, well, McDonald's,

358
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you know, it's about Hamburgers. Really, is this going to

359
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be a great place? And I will. I mean I've

360
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been doing this which type of work now for a

361
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long time, coming up to thirty years. And the people

362
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a McDonald's were the proudest people that I've ever come

363
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across ever. They were so proud of where they worked justifiably.

364
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I mean, it's a hell of an organization. You know,

365
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whatever we think, it's an amazing organization. I mean it's

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a it's a glorious campus for a start, and it's

367
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there are lakes and fountains and all of that. It's

368
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but they they purposely wanted I was there for four

369
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days and they wanted to take me round. They took

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me around to give me a tour to see how

371
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this this place works, and and it's hugely impressive. And

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as we often say about McDonald's, you know, when you

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when you go into into McDonald's, whether it's in you know,

374
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San Francisco or Shrewsbury which is where I live, it

375
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over here, or or anywhere else, uh huh, to have

376
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that level of consistency, which is which is terribly important

377
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to any organization. I mean it's important with a symphony orchestra,

378
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you know, when you go to them, you don't want

379
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to you don't want to find out that, oh, tonight

380
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they're having an off night. No, no, I've I've paid

381
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one hundred dollars for this. I don't want you to

382
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have an off night. I want it to be outstanding,

383
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and they do now. Likewise that when you go into

384
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McDonald's you know what you're going to get exactly. It

385
00:25:57.680 --> 00:26:01.880
never fails. And that and also when you think the

386
00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:04.839
people that are there, many of them are in their

387
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second language. These are not well educated people. Very often,

388
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very often they're teenagers. As somebody once said, these are

389
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kids that at home you find it hard to get

390
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them to clean their bedroom, to make their bed. And

391
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yet McDonald's can take these young people and make them

392
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into a team, a high performing team, and you think, wow,

393
00:26:30.680 --> 00:26:34.039
that is you've you've got some systems in place here.

394
00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:38.079
This is very impressive in a way that I never

395
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imagined it would be. So that's that's the most obvious one.

396
00:26:43.160 --> 00:26:49.680
Yeah, definitely, consistency is the key. And what you mentioned

397
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was that people were proud. They are proud to be

398
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at McDonald's. And it's about biling those systems. So many

399
00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:04.799
times we don't talk about systemic thinking. People think like, oh,

400
00:27:04.920 --> 00:27:08.720
teams teams is definitely dealing with people, but at the

401
00:27:08.759 --> 00:27:12.599
same time creating systems and culture that will hold the

402
00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:18.599
team succeed. So, moving a little bit away from the

403
00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:24.680
organizational bead, what are some of the ways, like, you know,

404
00:27:24.759 --> 00:27:28.640
some of your special sauce that you use to understand

405
00:27:28.759 --> 00:27:33.720
your clients and colleagues. What would you share with her audience.

406
00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:40.599
Oh, well, because I'm a business psychologist, so I'm interested

407
00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:44.559
in what makes people tick. I think I'm really interested

408
00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:48.759
in that because well, I've said that for many years.

409
00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:51.519
I'm interested in people. Well, I am interested in people,

410
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:56.519
but I'm also interested in myself because a few years ago,

411
00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:01.240
six years ago, I had a very late diagnosis of

412
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:06.039
having aspergers, of being on the artistic spectrum, and which

413
00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:09.759
was we don't nest, we don't need to talk about it.

414
00:28:09.799 --> 00:28:11.319
But it was. It was a fabulous day. It was

415
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:18.359
I felt so liberating. So but that was, yeah, that

416
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:21.799
was it was. It was a very important day for me.

417
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:27.559
And so I'm interested in other people, but to understand myself.

418
00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:30.200
And one of the tools I use and have used

419
00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:37.240
for thirty years now are personality profiles where people before

420
00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:40.799
a workshop, but before they come along, they fill in

421
00:28:40.839 --> 00:28:45.720
the questionnaire and I create a personality profile for them,

422
00:28:46.119 --> 00:28:51.160
and they're in some ways they're very simple documents. I mean,

423
00:28:51.160 --> 00:28:53.559
they can be twenty odd pages long, but then in

424
00:28:53.599 --> 00:28:58.480
some ways they're quite simple. But they but the point

425
00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:03.000
is it's to help us understand be able to have

426
00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:07.960
a conversation. You mentioned conversation a few minutes ago, and

427
00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:12.240
that is that is the key to everything's it's the

428
00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:18.599
key to building trust. It's the key to connecting with

429
00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:23.240
other people. And we're social creatures, so we need to connect.

430
00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:26.440
Most of us are not hermits. We like to be

431
00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:29.400
with other people, but we find them irritating or difficult

432
00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:30.759
to understand that.

433
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:34.480
What I'm going to share is, like, you know, when

434
00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:40.119
we talk about conversation, Yeah, yes, yes, conversations with everyone,

435
00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:43.319
and some conversations can be very hard. Yeah.

436
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:45.640
Well, and we all say, oh, we should value the

437
00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:49.720
difference as well. Yeah, as long as yes, but as

438
00:29:49.720 --> 00:29:52.559
long as you think like I do, it's fine. That's

439
00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:55.279
you know. We it's a bit of a challenge if

440
00:29:55.319 --> 00:29:59.240
people think really differently from us, But the best way

441
00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:03.799
is to talk to them. And this these personality profiles,

442
00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:07.359
that's what it's there to do. It's to help conversation.

443
00:30:07.759 --> 00:30:08.640
So it helps us.

444
00:30:09.279 --> 00:30:14.160
It helps us look at ourselves, our strengths and our weaknesses.

445
00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:17.799
And you might think that most people know what their

446
00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:21.680
strengths and weaknesses are. Well, I would suggest, as somebody

447
00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:24.000
who's been doing this for a very long time said

448
00:30:24.039 --> 00:30:27.599
thirty years, most people don't. Most people do not know

449
00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:31.319
what their strengths are. I mean, if they, if you know,

450
00:30:31.400 --> 00:30:36.559
say they so my son works at Deloitte over in Houston.

451
00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:41.720
Now he might say, well, you know, so, what's one

452
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:45.440
of your strengths. Well, I know a lot about tax. Well, yes,

453
00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:47.720
you do know. He does know a lot about tax.

454
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:50.839
That's not one of his strengths at all. I mean,

455
00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:54.519
come on, we're talking about other things. There are things

456
00:30:54.559 --> 00:30:58.880
which are far more important than knowing that, than the

457
00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:01.480
nuts and bolts of what we do. And that's what

458
00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:04.839
I try and help people do. That's why when I

459
00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:08.720
work with a team, I want everyone by you know,

460
00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:10.960
by the end of the session or the next few weeks,

461
00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:16.039
to really know what is it that they bring to

462
00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:19.680
that team. Why is it essential that they are there?

463
00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:24.119
What is what is it that they do that no

464
00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:26.440
one else in the team can do? Because there are

465
00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:30.920
things and it's not saying that they're superman or superwoman,

466
00:31:31.160 --> 00:31:34.799
but there are things that they do where other people think,

467
00:31:35.400 --> 00:31:37.799
you know, well, you know with you wow. There will

468
00:31:37.799 --> 00:31:40.440
be people who think, I just don't know how Diviya

469
00:31:40.519 --> 00:31:45.039
does it. It's amazing, it's quite extraordinary. It could be

470
00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:49.920
about how you listen, or how you make decisions, or

471
00:31:50.680 --> 00:31:53.880
how the detail you bring to things. It could be

472
00:31:53.880 --> 00:31:57.640
all sorts of things, but there'll be things that you

473
00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:01.559
bring that nobody else does, and that's what we want

474
00:32:01.599 --> 00:32:05.480
to focus on. You know, there's you know, in a

475
00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:10.359
football team, there's no point having eleven goalkeepers or eleven strikers.

476
00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:12.720
You've got to you've got to have a mix. And

477
00:32:12.759 --> 00:32:16.119
it's the same in any a team at work, you know,

478
00:32:17.079 --> 00:32:19.759
same as an orchestra. We don't we don't want just

479
00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:23.680
you know, forty violins. We want to have that mix.

480
00:32:24.920 --> 00:32:28.039
So yeah, that's that's one of the I think that's

481
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:29.039
pretty important.

482
00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:35.599
Yea. And that definitely makes sense because let's say, and

483
00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:39.039
of course I'm a fan of personality types too. There's

484
00:32:39.039 --> 00:32:42.359
so many out there, and I've I've developed one of

485
00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:44.680
the types myself, and like you know, one of the

486
00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:49.599
types is like executor. So if somebody is an executor,

487
00:32:49.759 --> 00:32:53.759
they're so focused on results and getting things done, and

488
00:32:53.799 --> 00:32:56.759
then they miss out on some of the things and

489
00:32:56.839 --> 00:32:59.799
there could be empets. They're the want of on the

490
00:32:59.799 --> 00:33:04.920
can actions and they want to build that relationship. So

491
00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:08.240
when you're doing the project and when you bring each

492
00:33:09.319 --> 00:33:12.119
one of the different types or as you're saying, like

493
00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:15.680
you know where they have strengths, so it becomes like

494
00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:21.200
that puzzle pieces and together we can create that beautiful

495
00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:25.200
puzzle or like beautiful music as you're mentioning, And that's

496
00:33:25.240 --> 00:33:27.920
a really powerful way to kind of go. So, now,

497
00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:30.559
k we have brought people, you know, we have focused

498
00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:34.319
on their strengths. What has been your experience when there

499
00:33:34.359 --> 00:33:37.279
are differences? What are some of the good ways to

500
00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:38.079
resolve those?

501
00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:44.359
Well, it's what we've just been talking about. Is listening

502
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:50.880
really listening to people talking, you know, is conversation and

503
00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:56.599
it's and it's really listening and that's hard. So in

504
00:33:56.640 --> 00:33:59.119
the English language, we have a we make the distinction

505
00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:02.599
between hearing and listening. I don't think that happens in

506
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:05.599
every language. I'm not a linguist, so I'm not sure

507
00:34:05.640 --> 00:34:08.679
about that, but I think we're we're lucky in English

508
00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:15.360
that we have listening, but it's hard because and an

509
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:17.599
awful lot of people don't do it.

510
00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:18.679
You know, they.

511
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:23.719
You know, when they're when they're not talking in a conversation,

512
00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:27.320
they're really waiting for the next pause when they can

513
00:34:27.400 --> 00:34:29.559
say what the next thing they want to say. They're

514
00:34:29.559 --> 00:34:34.280
not really listening to you. But but we really need

515
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:38.599
to try and see the world from somebody else's perspective.

516
00:34:40.119 --> 00:34:45.760
But it's yeah, but it is difficult, and and we

517
00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:49.360
don't get much training at it either. I mean, it's

518
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:52.840
it's quite easy to find, and people go on courses

519
00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:57.320
for public speaking or presentation skills. I don't know of

520
00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:01.000
anyone that's been on a listening course. I don't know

521
00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:05.119
if they exist. Maybe I should start one, that would

522
00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:07.039
be uh yeah, that would be quite a good idea

523
00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:11.639
perhaps where you get people who are really listening. I

524
00:35:11.639 --> 00:35:14.719
mean one of the I mean a simple exercise that

525
00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:16.760
I sometimes start workshops with.

526
00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:17.719
Is that.

527
00:35:19.400 --> 00:35:22.519
Especially if well that doesn't yeah, especially if I suppose

528
00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:24.480
if they're people that don't know each other, but it

529
00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:29.440
doesn't really matter. Is that okay, this is as soon

530
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:31.559
as you've said a lot to them, is okay, Well

531
00:35:31.719 --> 00:35:36.239
just go off in pairs and introduce yourself to your

532
00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:40.199
partner and just talk about, you know, what's brought you here,

533
00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:43.320
what you're a bit about your career, why you're here,

534
00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:47.679
that's okay, and then and then you know, you swap

535
00:35:47.719 --> 00:35:50.920
over and then you come back and then we're going

536
00:35:51.000 --> 00:35:54.800
to share it with the group. Except if it was

537
00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:58.239
you and me, I have to introduce you and you

538
00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:03.039
have to introduce me, so that you really have to

539
00:36:03.119 --> 00:36:06.039
listen to what I'm saying and I really have to

540
00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:09.079
listen to you now, and that's usually done. That can

541
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:11.559
be done at ten past nine in the morning. And

542
00:36:12.119 --> 00:36:16.239
it suddenly makes people realize, oh, oh yeah, what what

543
00:36:16.280 --> 00:36:22.360
was it that Diva said? Not really sure? And it's

544
00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:25.280
and I try to say, don't take notes, you've just

545
00:36:26.199 --> 00:36:28.800
we are you talking for a few minutes. Is just

546
00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:33.559
try and remember, really listen to what she's saying. And

547
00:36:33.800 --> 00:36:36.480
it's it's quit a wake up call to people. I

548
00:36:36.519 --> 00:36:41.159
think too that we don't listen as well as we could.

549
00:36:41.239 --> 00:36:43.920
But like anything, we can get better at it. Of

550
00:36:43.960 --> 00:36:47.920
course we can. And the and the rewards are enormous.

551
00:36:49.079 --> 00:36:54.039
Absolutely, because the connection goes deeper and deeper than you're listening,

552
00:36:54.079 --> 00:36:57.559
whether it is active listening or reflective listening, you know,

553
00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:04.239
listening and then ensuring that you're understanding the other person.

554
00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:09.119
So we have had some great conversation today, Charles. How

555
00:37:09.159 --> 00:37:16.159
can people connect with you and share with us you

556
00:37:16.199 --> 00:37:17.400
want to share about yourself?

557
00:37:19.719 --> 00:37:27.880
Well, okay, there's a website Charlesgrimes dot com. And I yeah,

558
00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:31.440
I just love I love doing one to one work

559
00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:38.039
to get the real depth and workshops are lovely and

560
00:37:38.119 --> 00:37:41.800
I do like the energy that you get and I

561
00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:46.719
like seeing people the light bulbs that go off for people,

562
00:37:46.840 --> 00:37:49.480
that go on for people, I should say, so that's

563
00:37:49.519 --> 00:37:52.960
always very rewarding. But I also like one to one

564
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:57.440
because it's the depth that you can get to. That's

565
00:37:57.599 --> 00:38:02.480
one of the things that I love is I don't

566
00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:08.000
I don't do superficiality very well. I don't do small

567
00:38:08.119 --> 00:38:11.840
talk very well. You know, if you're if we have

568
00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:14.480
a conversation, I mean I have. I have a colleague

569
00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:18.039
who says, you know, he loves talking. You know, sometimes

570
00:38:18.039 --> 00:38:22.159
we're away on workshops together and overnight and he says,

571
00:38:22.280 --> 00:38:25.760
I love our conversations, Charles, but I can only take

572
00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:31.519
one night off them because of the intensity. Because I said,

573
00:38:31.599 --> 00:38:35.119
I don't do superficial. You know, if you, if I

574
00:38:35.159 --> 00:38:39.079
talk to you, we'll get to some depth. Because that's

575
00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:39.519
the point.

576
00:38:39.639 --> 00:38:43.920
I think, well, and the differences lies to depth.

577
00:38:45.559 --> 00:38:48.559
Yeah, I think so of course, yes, yes.

578
00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:51.719
Because think about it, how boring it would be if

579
00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:53.760
all of us were just the.

580
00:38:53.599 --> 00:39:01.679
Same, be ridiculous. Of course, yes, exactly, yes, and it's yeah.

581
00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:04.760
And so if we were having a conversation, if you

582
00:39:04.760 --> 00:39:07.960
and I were having a conversation about music, and I've

583
00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:11.400
just I said earlier on I love Bark and you said, oh,

584
00:39:11.480 --> 00:39:15.440
I love Bach too, then what I mean, what do

585
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:20.639
we say after that? But if you say, well, yeah

586
00:39:20.719 --> 00:39:24.039
I like Bach, but I really love Beethoven and Mozart,

587
00:39:24.679 --> 00:39:28.760
well okay, now we can start talking about that, and

588
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:32.320
it's it just deepens everything, and it would be very

589
00:39:32.840 --> 00:39:35.679
and you might say, frankly, I don't do any of them,

590
00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:39.880
but I do love you know, Stephen Somedheim in musicals,

591
00:39:40.360 --> 00:39:44.000
or I love you know, the Beatles. I don't care

592
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:48.320
what you like. It's let's have a conversation about it. Yeah,

593
00:39:48.440 --> 00:39:51.599
it's the depth. What does music mean to you? Or

594
00:39:51.639 --> 00:39:54.360
what does anything mean to you? What does family mean

595
00:39:54.440 --> 00:39:55.440
to you? Yes?

596
00:39:56.519 --> 00:40:01.199
Yeah, so esbare coming to the end of our show.

597
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:04.760
Do you want to say anything about Richard Freeman and

598
00:40:04.760 --> 00:40:05.920
then you talk about it.

599
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:09.800
Oh, Richard Feynman, Yes, well he is. For those people

600
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:14.079
who don't aren't aware of him, he is, they will.

601
00:40:14.239 --> 00:40:20.199
He's a physicist. He's certainly you will certainly know of Einstein, obviously,

602
00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:25.440
but and some people have said that Richard Feynman is

603
00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:28.559
that is to the same as ein Einstein is in

604
00:40:28.599 --> 00:40:31.320
the first part of the century, last century, and Richard

605
00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:35.000
Feinnman is the equivalent of Einstein in the second half

606
00:40:35.639 --> 00:40:38.440
of the century. He's one of the very few physicists

607
00:40:38.440 --> 00:40:43.119
that can be talked about in the same breath. An

608
00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:49.239
absolute giant, but not just a brilliant physicist and a mathematician,

609
00:40:50.079 --> 00:40:54.440
but a communicator. That is the thing that he brought.

610
00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:59.079
He is an outstanding, one of the the great, outstanding

611
00:40:59.119 --> 00:41:03.519
communicators of anything. He could take the most complex stuff

612
00:41:03.880 --> 00:41:09.599
and convey it to people. And his what he was

613
00:41:09.639 --> 00:41:13.920
interested in is the biggest idea of all, which is

614
00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:19.039
the universe, the cosmos, is what is things like what

615
00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:24.199
is light? What is time? These amazing things that we

616
00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:27.760
just talk about but don't understand. And he spent his

617
00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:32.920
life looking at them, and he is just an absolute giant.

618
00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:36.079
And I he did it with lots of fun and

619
00:41:36.280 --> 00:41:40.840
joy as well. And so that's one of the things

620
00:41:40.840 --> 00:41:44.079
goes back to Bath, the joy that he had in life.

621
00:41:45.559 --> 00:41:49.559
He also one of his things was he eventually got

622
00:41:49.599 --> 00:41:54.239
the Nobel Prize in nineteen sixty six I think it was.

623
00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:58.519
And of course, yeah, he went over to Denmark and

624
00:41:58.840 --> 00:42:02.119
got the prize and presumably got lots of money for

625
00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:07.119
us as well, But he was very clear that that

626
00:42:07.639 --> 00:42:11.719
wasn't the prize for him. I mean it was, it

627
00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:15.840
was okay, but it was the real prize for him

628
00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:20.360
was firstly discovering stuff and then the fact that what

629
00:42:20.599 --> 00:42:25.159
the things he discovered other people used, his colleagues used

630
00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:28.840
and built on his work. That for him was the prize,

631
00:42:29.519 --> 00:42:34.880
not the as he said, he can't he couldn't stand uh. Well,

632
00:42:34.920 --> 00:42:38.079
he always referred to epaulet's you know, the things on

633
00:42:38.119 --> 00:42:42.400
your shoulders, people who have stripes, you know, to show

634
00:42:42.440 --> 00:42:47.480
their status. He couldn't bear that. And I'm pretty much

635
00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:52.480
like that. Yeah, sure, have all your achievements, but just

636
00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:56.559
don't don't show off about it. He was not a

637
00:42:56.599 --> 00:43:00.079
show off at all, and I find found him so

638
00:43:00.199 --> 00:43:05.119
refreshing and yeah, a giant in the world of physics.

639
00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:09.639
And as they say, right Richard Feinman being one of

640
00:43:09.679 --> 00:43:12.719
the people, we say that we stand on the shoulders

641
00:43:12.760 --> 00:43:16.960
of giants. So thank you for joining us, Charles. It

642
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:20.440
was a pleasure and I'm sure our listeners will check

643
00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:25.800
out your website Charlesgrimes dot com. Reach out to Charles

644
00:43:26.360 --> 00:43:29.199
and connect with him, and thank you for joining us.

645
00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:31.960
And thank you wonderful audience for being part of our show.

646
00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:35.159
Reach out to us like you always do. Let us

647
00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:37.199
know how we can serve and support you to live

648
00:43:37.239 --> 00:43:42.480
the best life you can. Thank you bring that joy

649
00:43:42.519 --> 00:43:46.280
in and thank you on attack Genius.

650
00:43:47.400 --> 00:43:49.800
Thank you for being part of Beyond Confidence. With your

651
00:43:49.800 --> 00:43:52.119
host d V Park, we hope you have learned more

652
00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:54.840
about how to start living the life you want. Each

653
00:43:54.880 --> 00:43:57.800
week on Beyond Confidence, you hear stories of real people

654
00:43:57.880 --> 00:44:02.360
who've experienced growth by overcoming their feet and building meaningful relationships.

655
00:44:02.719 --> 00:44:06.119
During Beyond Confidence, Vpark shares what happened to her when

656
00:44:06.159 --> 00:44:08.559
she stepped out of her comfort zone to work directly

657
00:44:08.599 --> 00:44:11.679
with people across the globe. She not only coaches people

658
00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:15.199
how to form hard connections, but also transform relationships to

659
00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:18.679
mutually beneficial partnerships as they strive to live the life

660
00:44:18.679 --> 00:44:21.000
they want. If you are ready to live the life

661
00:44:21.079 --> 00:44:24.800
you want and leverage your strengths, learn more at www

662
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:28.800
dot dwpark dot com and you can connect with dvat

663
00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:32.320
contact at dvpark dot com. We look forward to you

664
00:44:32.480 --> 00:44:33.559
joining us next week