How to Build High-Performing Teams: Leadership Lessons from a Symphony Orchestra

0:00 The topics and opinions expressed on the following show are solely those of the hosts and their guests, and not those of W four WN Radio it's employees or affiliates. We make no recommendations or endorsement for radio show programs, services, or products mentioned on air or on our web. No liability, explicit or implied shall be extended to W four WN Radio, its employees or affiliates. Any questions or common should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing W. Four WN Radio. This is Beyond Confidence with your host w park. Do you want to live a more fulfilling life? Do you want to live your legacy and achieve your personal, professional, and financial goals? Well? Coming up on dvparks Beyond Confidence, you will hear real stories of leaders, entrepreneurs, and achievers who have stepped into discomfort, shattered their status quo, and are living the life they want.

0:47 You will learn how relationships are the key to achieving your aspirations and financial goals. Moving your career business forward does not have to happen at the expense of your personal or family life or vice versa. Learn more at WWWA. You don't divopark dot com and you can connect with divants Contact Dants divpark dot com. This is beyond confidence and now here's your host, div Park. Good morning listeners, and it's a beautiful day today, Sunny Shanning, it's Tuesday. I'm here with you. So music, music is something that's a universal language that transcends boundaries, borders and humans.

1:34 And what has music got to do with leadership? That's what peopill be exploring today. And also I want to thank each and every one of you who have got a books. Especially in today's world, there is so much noise if you're looking to become an influencer. And now those days are gone where AI was just question mark. It's here to stay and AI is already stepping into our daily life. So how can you get ahead of it? How can you develop skills and how can you not lose the existing skills if you're looking for it? And invite you to check out our books and also know that partial proceeds from our bookscode to Kiwa dot org because it's important to help each other out. Well, let's bring in our guest. Welcome Charles.

2:40 Hello, Diviya, good to see you really looking forward to this conversation, looking. Forward to it as well. So Charles tell us, do you recall a moment or a person in your life that'll have to pass to Mark on you? Oh? Gosh, so many. I have had a succession of heroes in my life. There might be reasons why we might explore those why I've had them, But yes, ever since I was little, Uh it could be so I played the guitar, the classic guitar, so all those years ago.

3:20 A big influence when I was in my teens was a guitarist called John Williams, who I still believe is absolutely at the peak of the guitar world. I mean he's he's now in his eighties, so he's okay, not maybe not currently, but he's a giant in the work in the world of music. But I suppose. And then there have been all philosophers that have been scientists. Because I'm very interested in physics, so I could talk about Richard Feynman, the physicist. But I think when I think of really important people, I mean these are not people I have met. Obviously, I think of the great composers, because I have those people in my mind all the time.

4:12 So I always have music in my head. I used to think everyone must, but I don't think they do. But I do. I have music going round in my head, as you know as we speak. And the great composers BArch, Bethoven, Mozart, et cetera, are absolute giants of twentieth of Western civilization. And to have and if I had to pick one of them, it would be Bach, John Sebastian Bach, and so to have somebody like that, if you like looking over your shoulder all the time, I mean it's these These are such giants that it stops you getting above yourself.

4:57 I think when you realiz as what real, unimaginable genius is, and you said it could be Bethoven, it could be Mozart. In the world of art, I mean, it's not just music, but it's music for me. In the world of art, it could be Rembrandt. In the world of literature, it could be whole host, it could be Soldier Nits, and it could be all sorts of people. So, but these are truly impressive people. So but for me it would be Bach. I think, yeah, And what impression did it leave on you? Well? I think, okay, Bach covers as music does every possible emotion.

5:47 It's it. It conveys all the things that words can't. It really starts where music where words stop. If you like, that's that or they certainly do for me, and I think of all all the emotions. I mean there's you can think of the tragedy, and but for me, they I think Bach does joy better than anyone else. Beethoven is being joyous. There aren't many works of his that I when I think of joy, but there are so many and that's fine. I mean he does lots of other things. Baked Open is wonderful, but Bach does do joy. And I think joy is pretty important. Actually, I think it's it.

6:32 Is It is because if you think about it, all of us, whether we're aiming to go on vacation or you know, kids are studying, getting that education, getting a better life, what does that bring us? It brings us joy at the end of the day, spending time with family, spending holidays. So definitely, joy is a very very important emotion. Yeah, I do like it. Although I got to say that I am partial to Mozart and Beethoven. That's okay, that's yes, We're not going to fall out on that one. Yeah, I mean, you asked about you know people who have had a big influence. Okay, so there's a musician, so Daniel Barrenboim, who is now in his eighties, so almost retired, but he has been an absolute giant in the world of music.

7:29 And that's the beauty of conversations. Now you mentioned about Bach and Joy, I'm going to look at his music, listen to it, and experience it in a completely different way. And that's the beauty that we bring out as we go and talk about different things. Sure, yes, yes, So tell us how did you get into music and how did music become your life. Well, I was a chorister's little boy, just by chance. I went to a school. So I wasn't a chorister in a cathedral, but I was a chorus at school. We had a chapel. I went to a Posh school and so we had a chapel, and therefore I did from a young age. I did services every day, even on Saturdays and Sundays. So I just grew up in that tradition. And for me it wasn't the It wasn't.

8:26 Of course, it's religious, but that wasn't what did it for me at all. I mean, yes, I've heard lots of sermons, I've heard lots of Bible readings, but it wasn't the words that got me, but the music absolutely did. So I had a very good grounding in that in that you learn how to sit, read and you learn how to perform at a very high level. And I was also lucky that I lived near Liverpool, and when I was twelve and thirteen the two big concerts that the Liverpool Philharmonic gave which required as well as an orchestra and a choir, it required a children's choir, and so one of them, when I was thirteen, there was a new cathedral opened in Liverpool. Now cathedrals aren't built and open very often, and they put this big piece on by Ballio's a setting of his today and it was so it needs huge forces and so we were involved in that. It was also televised, so for me as a thirteen year old, I think I was more interested in watching all these TV cameras sort of whirring around the cathedral. But what that really introduced me to was working at a professional level. I wasn't being paid for it, so I'm not professional in the strict sense,

9:58 but I was. I at a very early age twelve and thirteen to know what a professional standard is when you're working with a professional orchestra and a professional conductor. And once you've learned that, you never go back. So you I mean simple things like you go to a rehearsal and you don't talk, you don't chatter, And it's surprising when you go to an amateur choir. Part of it is social, so they like to have a bit of a natter, you know while the other people are singing. Well, you just don't do that, and I never do and that can be, of course frustrating because or it can also make me seem anti social. But no, I just like to go for the high standards. So that I was very fortunate in that, and then I've just sung in choirs ever since, and again at a high standard.

10:54 I sang with the Academy of Saint Martin and the Fields for twenty years and we went all over the world and all over Europe. So I've been extremely fortunate to experience this. And what leadership lessons have you brought back from those journeys? Gosh, well, there are so many things that I think we can learn from the and it's not just leaders as well. I mean you didn't say that, but if you did say we and that's an important thing. It's not just leaders because when we think of leaders we tend to think of people in the military or the big business or politics. Well, yeah, they could learn, but it's all of us that can learn from the world of music because we're all we all are leaders in a way, we all have access to leadership. And that's one of the things I always like to get across that leaders and leadership are different, different concepts, and we all whether it's in our work but also in our communities.

11:59 We can show leadership. In our families. We can show leadership. You know, as parents, what sort of leadership do we show to our children? As a partner, what do I What leadership do I show to my to my partner or my spouse, and vice versa. So this is terribly important. So some of the lessons, I suppose the most obvious one is listening. I mean, that's what musicians do. That is the thing that separates them from from other people. That's what that's the skill that they've really developed, just like artists have developed a way of seeing. I remember, my mother was an art teacher. And I remember her when I was little. She was painting something and she some flowers and just she said, she pointed to some leaves in this still life that, you know, a bunch of flowers that she had said, what colors that? Well, obviously they were leaves, so I said, well, they're green, and then she pointed out, well, they're almost every color but green. You know, there are purples, there are oranges, there are yellows, there are reds in that if you really learn to see. And that's what artists can do.

13:20 Like now. Likewise, musicians what they can do is here and listen, not just here, but really listen. And that's listening to you know, if I'm singing in the cathedral, of course I'm listening to the people on either side, So you know, am I blending with them? Because we have to blend together? But also I'm listening to myself. You know, am I really doing what I think I'm doing? I mean, I think I'm singing in tune. I think that note is in tune, but is it really? Is it a bit flat? Is it a bit sharp? I think it was on time, but was it I a bit late? A bit early? So you're always ruthlessly listening to yourself and looking at yourself. And that's a thing which we all have to do. I mean, we have to do it in work. Is you know, really check am I am?

14:21 I really? What is going on here? But likewise we should do it with our family. You know, how about if we if we sat around the kitchen table and said, this is what I think's going on. This is how I think I've behaved. But hey, kids, what do you think you know? Tell me be honest. Now of course I can then go back to them, of course and say, well, this is how you think you behaved, this is how I see it. But it's a Then we create a dialogue, and that's hugely important, I think. Yeah, so that's just one lesson from the world of music.

15:02 You're opening the doors for conversation, and when conversation and dialogues happen, that's when the barriers break and you start pulling trust, which is the foundation of any relationship. And if you're talking about orchestra, I mean, I don't have a musical note in my body. I can listen and I can experience it. But that said, like you said, everyone doing their piece at the right time, in the right order, and just that right amount for everyone to come together and sound beautiful. So so many times what.

15:42 Happening, And I'll I'll just correct you there, if you if I may, and that you said, you know, a few minutes ago you were talking about your love of Beethoven and Mozart, and then you've just said, I'm not I don't know a musical bone in your body, by which I'm presuming you say you're meaning you don't play the piano or you don't play an instruments or no, that's one part of being a musician is being able to play. But if we just play to nobody, that's no good at all. You know, we need it's it's it's a it's a coming together of performers and listeners. You need the two together, just like you know on a you can't have one without the other. Really, just like you know, if you think of a magnet, you know, a simple bar magnet, and you have a north pole and a south pole, you can't have one without the other.

16:37 We if we perform, we need listeners. And just because you don't play an instrument doesn't matter. You are musical. So let's just. I appreciate that. Yeah, And since we're talking about leaders, leaders are like conductors, And if you're a conductor, you want to bring in that whole team. You want to have them in harmony. You want to have a cohesive team. But so many times what happens is that, especially when individual contributors are promoted to become leaders, then they have not been trained to be leaders, and then they bring in micromanagement. So how can leaders tend to stay away from it and yet create that harmony in the team.

17:30 I think it comes down to how we listen and how conductors listen. So they because micromanagement does have a place. If you overplay it, of course, if that's all you do, that's no good because you just it's just stultifying. We go nowhere. But it is important. And I'll so one of the things that conductors have to do is they listen. And I'll say this, I'll explain this. They listen both vertically, vertically and horizontally. I'll explain what I mean. So they listen horizontally. Now, let's imagine you're playing a you're conducting a Beethoven symphony, last forty five minutes. Now, in any big peek in any piece of music, there is a climax, the point that you're really moving towards. It's the absolute center of the whole work. It might be very often it's in the slow movement, in the third movement, where's that's the emotional peak of the whole piece. There are other peaks, of course, but that is the one, and you have to have that in mind when you start off.

18:54 You start, you know, as you give your downbeat, you've got that moment half an hour away, thirty five minutes away that you're aiming towards. That Everything is judged in relation to that, because you don't want to be too loud too early, because otherwise that won't have the impact. It's a bit like going on a walk, you know, says say you're going to walk in the countryside, and you're it's going to be up and down and up and down, but you can see in the distance there is that's the that's the highest hill that we're going to have to go over. So it's a bit like that. You're judging everything by that, So you have to do that. You have to think horizontally as a conductor, so you know where you're going, but at the same time. You can't just do that. You have to think vertically, I this moment, this chord that the orchestra is playing, is it completely in tune, because it might not be because they actually, the people in front, they're so busy playing that they it's not always easy to hear. In fact, very often it's not possible to hear you know, if you're if the horns, if the French horns are playing flat out, they cannot hear the cellos and vice versa.

20:16 So you've the only person that can is the conductor. Because the conductor standing in front has got this helicopter view if you can hear everything in more of a balance, So you have to you're thinking vertically as they're playing that is it exactly together? Is it in tune? Is it balanced? Because maybe I need a bit more cello here, Maybe the horns are a bit loud. They're in tune, but they're a bit loud, so I need constantly you're shuffling it around. Now, if you just do that, we go nowhere. But you have to do both. So that and that's really micro management of just saying yeah, you're pointing to them, they need to be brought up they need to be quiet and down. Now. It's just the same of course in the workplace. You know, if you're the CEO, you have to be thinking, Okay, what's going to happen in you know, Q three, Q four, next year to twenty twenty seven, and how are we moving forward?

21:18 What's the twelve month plan? What are the milestones en route? But if we just do that, then the whole thing can can fall apart. So you have to also while you're doing that, think okay, this week, what's going on here? And you have to hear from the different divisions and are we really doing what we think we do so and that comes very much down to micro management. So you have to balance the two, I think, and you can't have one without the other again like the like the. Magnet, Yeah definitely, And what I'm hearing is that you want to you talked about like hearing cello and different music instruments. So similarly, whether you're leader, and like you mentioned, can anybody can be a leader? It's not just about the title. It is about listening to people who maybe they could be your peers or they could be your reports and what is that every person thinking where they're at and are you in tune with them because that listening, that deep listening, is what's going to let you know where to manage those expectations where you are enabling and empowering your team members to grow to have that agency

22:51 for themselves. Because if you think about it, in orchestra, you're bringing in the right people and also you're training them. There are so many practices. Just like sports, there is that repetition, So how are you bringing together that people are playing in harmony? So this definitely applies to leadership. Now, I'm curious what are some of your experiences as you worked with Google, British Airways, McDonald's, companies like that. What are some of the experiences that you took forward in your life.

23:34 With McDonald's. I was lucky to run some courses over in Chicago. That's where their headquarters is, on the South side of Chicago, and they have a huge campus there, including one of their main training facilities, which is known as the Hamburger University. And it's so easy or I've I should back up there. I was yeah a bit thinking, well, McDonald's, you know, it's about Hamburgers. Really, is this going to be a great place? And I will. I mean I've been doing this which type of work now for a long time, coming up to thirty years. And the people a McDonald's were the proudest people that I've ever come across ever. They were so proud of where they worked justifiably.

24:35 I mean, it's a hell of an organization. You know, whatever we think, it's an amazing organization. I mean it's a it's a glorious campus for a start, and it's there are lakes and fountains and all of that. It's but they they purposely wanted I was there for four days and they wanted to take me round. They took me around to give me a tour to see how this this place works, and and it's hugely impressive. And as we often say about McDonald's, you know, when you when you go into into McDonald's, whether it's in you know, San Francisco or Shrewsbury which is where I live, it over here, or or anywhere else, uh huh, to have that level of consistency, which is which is terribly important to any organization. I mean it's important with a symphony orchestra, you know, when you go to them, you don't want to you don't want to find out that, oh, tonight they're having an off night. No, no, I've I've paid one hundred dollars for this. I don't want you to have an off night. I want it to be outstanding, and they do now. Likewise that when you go into McDonald's you know what you're going to get exactly. It never fails. And that and also when you think the people that are there, many of them are in their second language. These are not well educated people. Very often,

26:09 very often they're teenagers. As somebody once said, these are kids that at home you find it hard to get them to clean their bedroom, to make their bed. And yet McDonald's can take these young people and make them into a team, a high performing team, and you think, wow, that is you've you've got some systems in place here. This is very impressive in a way that I never imagined it would be. So that's that's the most obvious one. Yeah, definitely, consistency is the key. And what you mentioned was that people were proud. They are proud to be at McDonald's. And it's about biling those systems. So many times we don't talk about systemic thinking. People think like, oh, teams teams is definitely dealing with people, but at the same time creating systems and culture that will hold the team succeed. So, moving a little bit away from the organizational bead, what are some of the ways, like, you know, some of your special sauce that you use to understand your clients and colleagues. What would you share with her audience.

27:35 Oh, well, because I'm a business psychologist, so I'm interested in what makes people tick. I think I'm really interested in that because well, I've said that for many years. I'm interested in people. Well, I am interested in people, but I'm also interested in myself because a few years ago, six years ago, I had a very late diagnosis of having aspergers, of being on the artistic spectrum, and which was we don't nest, we don't need to talk about it. But it was. It was a fabulous day. It was I felt so liberating. So but that was, yeah, that was it was. It was a very important day for me.

28:22 And so I'm interested in other people, but to understand myself. And one of the tools I use and have used for thirty years now are personality profiles where people before a workshop, but before they come along, they fill in the questionnaire and I create a personality profile for them, and they're in some ways they're very simple documents. I mean, they can be twenty odd pages long, but then in some ways they're quite simple. But they but the point is it's to help us understand be able to have a conversation. You mentioned conversation a few minutes ago, and that is that is the key to everything's it's the key to building trust. It's the key to connecting with other people. And we're social creatures, so we need to connect.

29:23 Most of us are not hermits. We like to be with other people, but we find them irritating or difficult to understand that. What I'm going to share is, like, you know, when we talk about conversation, Yeah, yes, yes, conversations with everyone, and some conversations can be very hard. Yeah. Well, and we all say, oh, we should value the difference as well. Yeah, as long as yes, but as long as you think like I do, it's fine. That's you know. We it's a bit of a challenge if people think really differently from us, But the best way is to talk to them. And this these personality profiles, that's what it's there to do. It's to help conversation.

30:07 So it helps us. It helps us look at ourselves, our strengths and our weaknesses. And you might think that most people know what their strengths and weaknesses are. Well, I would suggest, as somebody who's been doing this for a very long time said thirty years, most people don't. Most people do not know what their strengths are. I mean, if they, if you know, say they so my son works at Deloitte over in Houston. Now he might say, well, you know, so, what's one of your strengths. Well, I know a lot about tax. Well, yes, you do know. He does know a lot about tax.

30:48 That's not one of his strengths at all. I mean, come on, we're talking about other things. There are things which are far more important than knowing that, than the nuts and bolts of what we do. And that's what I try and help people do. That's why when I work with a team, I want everyone by you know, by the end of the session or the next few weeks, to really know what is it that they bring to that team. Why is it essential that they are there? What is what is it that they do that no one else in the team can do? Because there are things and it's not saying that they're superman or superwoman, but there are things that they do where other people think, you know, well, you know with you wow. There will be people who think, I just don't know how Diviya does it. It's amazing, it's quite extraordinary. It could be about how you listen, or how you make decisions, or how the detail you bring to things. It could be all sorts of things, but there'll be things that you bring that nobody else does, and that's what we want to focus on. You know, there's you know, in a football team, there's no point having eleven goalkeepers or eleven strikers.

32:10 You've got to you've got to have a mix. And it's the same in any a team at work, you know, same as an orchestra. We don't we don't want just you know, forty violins. We want to have that mix. So yeah, that's that's one of the I think that's pretty important. Yea. And that definitely makes sense because let's say, and of course I'm a fan of personality types too. There's so many out there, and I've I've developed one of the types myself, and like you know, one of the types is like executor. So if somebody is an executor, they're so focused on results and getting things done, and then they miss out on some of the things and there could be empets. They're the want of on the can actions and they want to build that relationship. So when you're doing the project and when you bring each one of the different types or as you're saying, like you know where they have strengths, so it becomes like that puzzle pieces and together we can create that beautiful puzzle or like beautiful music as you're mentioning, And that's a really powerful way to kind of go. So, now, k we have brought people, you know, we have focused on their strengths. What has been your experience when there are differences? What are some of the good ways to resolve those?

33:40 Well, it's what we've just been talking about. Is listening really listening to people talking, you know, is conversation and it's and it's really listening and that's hard. So in the English language, we have a we make the distinction between hearing and listening. I don't think that happens in every language. I'm not a linguist, so I'm not sure about that, but I think we're we're lucky in English that we have listening, but it's hard because and an awful lot of people don't do it. You know, they. You know, when they're when they're not talking in a conversation, they're really waiting for the next pause when they can say what the next thing they want to say. They're not really listening to you. But but we really need to try and see the world from somebody else's perspective.

34:40 But it's yeah, but it is difficult, and and we don't get much training at it either. I mean, it's it's quite easy to find, and people go on courses for public speaking or presentation skills. I don't know of anyone that's been on a listening course. I don't know if they exist. Maybe I should start one, that would be uh yeah, that would be quite a good idea perhaps where you get people who are really listening. I mean one of the I mean a simple exercise that I sometimes start workshops with. Is that. Especially if well that doesn't yeah, especially if I suppose if they're people that don't know each other, but it doesn't really matter. Is that okay, this is as soon as you've said a lot to them, is okay, Well just go off in pairs and introduce yourself to your partner and just talk about, you know, what's brought you here, what you're a bit about your career, why you're here, that's okay, and then and then you know, you swap over and then you come back and then we're going to share it with the group. Except if it was you and me, I have to introduce you and you have to introduce me, so that you really have to listen to what I'm saying and I really have to listen to you now, and that's usually done. That can be done at ten past nine in the morning. And

36:12 it suddenly makes people realize, oh, oh yeah, what what was it that Diva said? Not really sure? And it's and I try to say, don't take notes, you've just we are you talking for a few minutes. Is just try and remember, really listen to what she's saying. And it's it's quit a wake up call to people. I think too that we don't listen as well as we could. But like anything, we can get better at it. Of course we can. And the and the rewards are enormous. Absolutely, because the connection goes deeper and deeper than you're listening, whether it is active listening or reflective listening, you know, listening and then ensuring that you're understanding the other person.

37:05 So we have had some great conversation today, Charles. How can people connect with you and share with us you want to share about yourself? Well, okay, there's a website Charlesgrimes dot com. And I yeah, I just love I love doing one to one work to get the real depth and workshops are lovely and I do like the energy that you get and I like seeing people the light bulbs that go off for people, that go on for people, I should say, so that's always very rewarding. But I also like one to one because it's the depth that you can get to. That's one of the things that I love is I don't I don't do superficiality very well. I don't do small talk very well. You know, if you're if we have a conversation, I mean I have. I have a colleague who says, you know, he loves talking. You know, sometimes we're away on workshops together and overnight and he says, I love our conversations, Charles, but I can only take one night off them because of the intensity. Because I said, I don't do superficial. You know, if you, if I

38:35 talk to you, we'll get to some depth. Because that's the point. I think, well, and the differences lies to depth. Yeah, I think so of course, yes, yes. Because think about it, how boring it would be if all of us were just the. Same, be ridiculous. Of course, yes, exactly, yes, and it's yeah. And so if we were having a conversation, if you and I were having a conversation about music, and I've just I said earlier on I love Bark and you said, oh, I love Bach too, then what I mean, what do we say after that? But if you say, well, yeah I like Bach, but I really love Beethoven and Mozart, well okay, now we can start talking about that, and it's it just deepens everything, and it would be very and you might say, frankly, I don't do any of them, but I do love you know, Stephen Somedheim in musicals, or I love you know, the Beatles. I don't care what you like. It's let's have a conversation about it. Yeah, it's the depth. What does music mean to you? Or what does anything mean to you? What does family mean to you? Yes?

39:56 Yeah, so esbare coming to the end of our show. Do you want to say anything about Richard Freeman and then you talk about it. Oh, Richard Feynman, Yes, well he is. For those people who don't aren't aware of him, he is, they will. He's a physicist. He's certainly you will certainly know of Einstein, obviously, but and some people have said that Richard Feynman is that is to the same as ein Einstein is in the first part of the century, last century, and Richard Feinnman is the equivalent of Einstein in the second half of the century. He's one of the very few physicists that can be talked about in the same breath. An absolute giant, but not just a brilliant physicist and a mathematician, but a communicator. That is the thing that he brought.

40:55 He is an outstanding, one of the the great, outstanding communicators of anything. He could take the most complex stuff and convey it to people. And his what he was interested in is the biggest idea of all, which is the universe, the cosmos, is what is things like what is light? What is time? These amazing things that we just talk about but don't understand. And he spent his life looking at them, and he is just an absolute giant. And I he did it with lots of fun and joy as well. And so that's one of the things goes back to Bath, the joy that he had in life.

41:45 He also one of his things was he eventually got the Nobel Prize in nineteen sixty six I think it was. And of course, yeah, he went over to Denmark and got the prize and presumably got lots of money for us as well, But he was very clear that that wasn't the prize for him. I mean it was, it was okay, but it was the real prize for him was firstly discovering stuff and then the fact that what the things he discovered other people used, his colleagues used and built on his work. That for him was the prize, not the as he said, he can't he couldn't stand uh. Well, he always referred to epaulet's you know, the things on your shoulders, people who have stripes, you know, to show their status. He couldn't bear that. And I'm pretty much like that. Yeah, sure, have all your achievements, but just don't don't show off about it. He was not a show off at all, and I find found him so refreshing and yeah, a giant in the world of physics.

43:06 And as they say, right Richard Feinman being one of the people, we say that we stand on the shoulders of giants. So thank you for joining us, Charles. It was a pleasure and I'm sure our listeners will check out your website Charlesgrimes dot com. Reach out to Charles and connect with him, and thank you for joining us. And thank you wonderful audience for being part of our show. Reach out to us like you always do. Let us know how we can serve and support you to live the best life you can. Thank you bring that joy in and thank you on attack Genius.

43:47 Thank you for being part of Beyond Confidence. With your host d V Park, we hope you have learned more about how to start living the life you want. Each week on Beyond Confidence, you hear stories of real people who've experienced growth by overcoming their feet and building meaningful relationships. During Beyond Confidence, Vpark shares what happened to her when she stepped out of her comfort zone to work directly with people across the globe. She not only coaches people how to form hard connections, but also transform relationships to mutually beneficial partnerships as they strive to live the life they want. If you are ready to live the life you want and leverage your strengths, learn more at www dot dwpark dot com and you can connect with dvat contact at dvpark dot com. We look forward to you joining us next week